Actually, a lot of medical students/pre-med students as well.
I've been googling the subject DNP vs. MD and find little from nurses, but a slew of pure hatred for nurses and the DNP.
What gives? I understand the idea- the fear that the DNP will start to deprive the MD from practice, rather than work with the MD.
I found the threads interesting as at no point did any of the med students, not once, show concern that the quality of care provided might be lacking with a DNP.
The med students have this idea that from year 1 of undergrad through completion of a DNP program there are only 600-700 hours required in clinic, and that a DNP takes 2 years or less presuming one already has a BSN.
They also seem to rage in regards to nurses being able to work, and thus get paid, while attending school.
They call the DNP's "Dr. Fakey McNursey", and worse.
Where's the respect? What about the patients?
Why all the hostility? Why do MD's feel they're being pushed away? Is there a history of these new DNP's not providing quality care, or working with MD's? Is it just an ego issue? And why do so many existing NP's dislike the idea of the DNP (beyond what I've read- that additional education isn't apparently needed, some claim)?
Specializes in ICU, Trauma, Anesthesia, Education, etc..
deltamed- "Instead the trend has been NP/DNP going into specialty care where we do not need them..."
Another person spewing fiction and acting like it's the truth. What is your source on this supposed "trend" besides your opinion?
As was so eloquently stated above, "It makes me wonder if he/she has any formal education in reading articles and deciding if they are valid...it's very very clear there are propaganda studies that some people buy hook line and sinker."
viral2010 should have remained an RN if she had no desire for professional autonomy. The problem here is not with NPs, but with physicians. They would like to think that their education makes them the RIGHT provider for every situation simply because they go to school longer. They certainly aren't more efficient simply by virtue of the fact that they study longer. In case you haven't noticed, it isn't just NP's, or DNP's for that matter who are interested in independent practice. Their patients are asking for it too. That should tell you something. What it tells you is that all of those senior residents and young attendings, the future generation of doctors should be angry at themselves and their own profession for not doing a better job of being the professionals that they claim to be.
In regards to the rural matters, it simply doesn't matter. Why would NPs be licensed to practice independently "but only in rural areas"? That would be ridiculous. No state that has authorized independent practice has restricted it to low population density areas to my knowledge. I'm not sure why they would want to cut the urban citizens out of the benefit of having an independent nurse practitioner at their disposal either.
I do continually find it comical when you medical students get on this board and run down any study that might make a nurse practitioner sound competent and then fail to ever produce a shred of evidence proving otherwise. You say "the verdict is still out" while ignoring the fact that there are several hundred thousand NPs out there providing care everyday and doing so successfully. Your arguments against this are so ridiculous that I don't believe that they come from the mouth of someone who has any education at all. You really expect someone to believe that you have a superior education when you make arguments like this?
Are you a practitioner? If not, please don't assume that all practitioners want independence. Its basically the ones who think they know as much as a doctor, like anpgnpfnpabc..whatever. There are studies out there with regard to nps but they dont cut the mustard. Becoming a np is not equivalent with autonomy nor should it be! NPs shouldn't be practicing independently ANYWHERE. Its amazing that so many of my colleagues seem to think that they have the same knowledge as someone who went to school 4x longer to get the same training. I believe that most nps have no intention of complete autonomous practice, at least the ones that i know and we have over 120 in practice.
Are you a practitioner? If not, please don't assume that all practitioners want independence. Its basically the ones who think they know as much as a doctor, like anpgnpfnpabc..whatever. There are studies out there with regard to nps but they dont cut the mustard. Becoming a np is not equivalent with autonomy nor should it be! NPs shouldn't be practicing independently ANYWHERE. Its amazing that so many of my colleagues seem to think that they have the same knowledge as someone who went to school 4x longer to get the same training. I believe that most nps have no intention of complete autonomous practice, at least the ones that i know and we have over 120 in practice.
If I am a practitioner or not has no bearing on whether or not I know if all practitioners want independence. Neither does your profession. Basically your opinion is flawed because there was no reason for you to become a professional if you didn't want autonomy. Why do you assume that someone thinks they "know as much as a doctor" if they want autonomy? All that means is that they don't want to work with a doctor. WHO CARES ABOUT THE STUDIES? NOBODY CARES ABOUT THE STUDIES! Where you have it screwed up in your head is that you think that someone NEEDS to know as much as a doctor to be an independently practicing provider. Where exactly did that rule come from? And I will tell you now that you are very wrong about whether NPs have intentions of autonomous practice.
Im glad that you know so much about my profession. The fact is that you have NO idea at all. You have been wrong from the begining because you have zero insight into this profession. If NPs want to practice medicine autonomously, they should go to medical school. go to medical school, go to medical school, go to medical school........ We do care about the studies because they are flawed. NPs on this forum like to base their arguments on these flawed studies, so they do matter. Once again, there are some on this forum who shouldn't be arguing about that which they do not know................
Im glad that you know so much about my profession. The fact is that you have NO idea at all. You have been wrong from the begining because you have zero insight into this profession. If NPs want to practice medicine autonomously, they should go to medical school. go to medical school, go to medical school, go to medical school........ We do care about the studies because they are flawed. NPs on this forum like to base their arguments on these flawed studies, so they do matter. Once again, there are some on this forum who shouldn't be arguing about that which they do not know................
So you are telling me that I have no idea and that NPs don't want to practice autonomously, but that NPs on this forum like to base their arguments on flawed studies? Which is it? Do they want to practice autonomously or not? You sound like you are angry by the way. Are you? You claim to know it all, so tell me something. If think you are too stupid to practice, why don't you just quit?
I practice in a hospital with physcian oversight as it should be for all nps, physcian oversight that is. Not angry here, I don't take this stuff personally..do you? I said that out of all the nps I work with and know, none of them want independent practice and are happy with physican oversight. I'm not too stupid to do my job, but I'm no physician either!!!!!!!
I practice in a hospital with physcian oversight as it should be for all nps, physcian oversight that is. Not angry here, I don't take this stuff personally..do you? I said that out of all the nps I work with and know, none of them want independent practice and are happy with physican oversight. I'm not too stupid to do my job, but I'm no physician either!!!!!!!
I think we have identified your first problem, NPs were meant to be generalist, not specialists. You are trying to function as a specialist, in which case, you do need supervision. You are trying to function outside of your scope of practice to begin with. So you basically are not smart enough to do your job autonomously. I agree with you. On the other hand, if you were in a primary care office, the story is entirely different.
Nps were NOT meant to be generalists. Once again, you have no idea about what you're saying. I was educated as a Pedi Crit Care NP, does that seem generalist to you? Most NPs, other than FNPs are ALL specialty focused. If you are going to start mudslinging with the negative comments about my intelligence then I will gave to gracefully bow out of this conversation.
Nps were NOT meant to be generalists. Once again, you have no idea about what you're saying. I was educated as a Pedi Crit Care NP, does that seem generalist to you? Most NPs, other than FNPs are ALL specialty focused. If you are going to start mudslinging with the negative comments about my intelligence then I will gave to gracefully bow out of this conversation.
If you are bowing out, that wasn't very graceful. The field lends itself to general practice much better than it does to specialty practice. Specializing was a CLM. Most NPs are FNPs, so most of them are NOT specialty focused. I'm not mudslinging, just calling a spade a spade.
Nps were NOT meant to be generalists. Once again, you have no idea about what you're saying. I was educated as a Pedi Crit Care NP, does that seem generalist to you? Most NPs, other than FNPs are ALL specialty focused. If you are going to start mudslinging with the negative comments about my intelligence then I will gave to gracefully bow out of this conversation.
Sorry, I didn't mean to be insulting. My point is this, an NP does have enough training to be an autonomous generalist. You certainly do not have enough training to do your job autonomously. You need to clarify what you are talking about and don't GENERALIZE and I suppose I need to do the same. Also, I suppose I didn't mean to same NPs were meant to be generalists, but they are better off being generalists and can do so autonomously. Your opinion and your position and experience have little bearing on whether an NP should be able to practice independently in a primary care setting. The reason I said you aren't smart enough to do your job independently is because you imply that NPs aren't smart enough to do their jobs autonomously.
WHO CARES ABOUT THE STUDIES? NOBODY CARES ABOUT THE STUDIES!
Unfortunately, that's a very bad stance to take in the realm of healthcare. Policies and protocols need to be driven by substantial evidence resulting from extensive studies. I would think that practically everyone involved in healthcare, and even those not involved (ie. politicians), care at least to some extent about studies. Studies are what drive evidence-based medicine. Try telling any researcher (who generally tend to be better versed in statistics and experimental design than most clinicians) that studies don't matter and see what kind of response you'll get.
My point is this, an NP does have enough training to be an autonomous generalist.
Citation please. No anecdotes! It's just hard to believe that, when residency directors are thinking of extending family practice residency by an additional year because of how much primary care physicians need to know to be competent, a fraction of the training is enough to be a fully independent midlevel. I can't imagine allowing a beginning third year med student (who has more basic science training and similar clinical hours as most NP/DNP curricula provide) or a beginning fourth year med student (who has more basic science training and far more clinical hours of training than most NP/DNP curricula provide) to practice independently. I'm genuinely curious about the logic behind the concept that less training is better than more training when taking care of patients. I hope that you can respond to me without resorting to mudslinging and insults like you have against viral.
Your opinion and your position and experience have little bearing on whether an NP should be able to practice independently in a primary care setting.
The same could be said for yours and mine as well. So, why are we arguing on an anonymous forum when we know that no one on either side will be changing their views? This battle should be taking place in the political scene and the courts, not on message boards.
The reason I said you aren't smart enough to do your job independently is because you imply that NPs aren't smart enough to do their jobs autonomously.
Actually, I don't think viral ever implied that NPs aren't smart enough to do anything. What he/she did say was that midlevel training isn't enough to be practicing autonomously. Two very different things. Don't be so quick to think that every statement not supporting independent practice is an insult.
FNPGrad
61 Posts
deltamed- "Instead the trend has been NP/DNP going into specialty care where we do not need them..."
Another person spewing fiction and acting like it's the truth. What is your source on this supposed "trend" besides your opinion?
As was so eloquently stated above, "It makes me wonder if he/she has any formal education in reading articles and deciding if they are valid...it's very very clear there are propaganda studies that some people buy hook line and sinker."