Why do I work from 7-7:30 (12.5 hours) but only get paid for 12? This happens EVERY shift, not just once in a while. They say it's our responsibility to take a lunch but it's almost never possible. Some shifts I don't even get to pee and do my charting standing up during a spare minute between tasks. If we have 2 RNs for 14 patients on a busy med-surg floor with frequent admits and discharges, when IS there time for a break?!
And how is it ok that you're required to show up for a 5 hour morning class and then come to work for another 13 hours that night? And repeat it the following day as well?
Is this the norm for the industry or do I just have a crappy job?
I re-read the posts, and I can see how this reads, but it's not what you're picturing. As I said before, there was enough short-staffing and enough of a workload that it simply wasn't manageable to expect to take on another patient assignment (9 patients each on nights) for lunchbreaks. To call it "bullying" to say to someone "I can't manage my own load right now, I cannot possibly do anything other than PRN for you, YOU have to set everything up ahead of time or pick it up afterward" seems ridiculous to me. She WAS unpopular to work with, because what I didn't tell you was that she had no problem NOT giving meds she COULD give before she left, she just expected the others to do it for her. And that's FINE if there was enough time for all, but.....there just wasn't. You might even say she was bullying the rest into doing her work.....but I didn't go there.
I never said it was a good situation, it was an awful situation, and I was only putting it out there as a means to let the OP know that this can and does happen, that it's not unique. It would be wonderful if everyone's efforts to convince management actually worked; you have a lot of questions as to why this wasn't attempted but you don't know what WAS attempted, and failed. Again, as I said before, there was quite a lot to the saga, and it did result in the "voting with the feet" solution.
What I am surprised about is that in the years I have been posting here, with all the things I have said with which you have been in agreement, have KNOWN where I stand on so many issues, and still you are seeing the blackest, most disagreeable possibility in what I've written here. I know you aren't seeing the full picture, as I also said, but you don't seem to recognize that (based on what you DO know about what I write and who I seem to be). Over the years I have enjoyed reading your posts, and have respect for where you are coming from, even if we aren't 100% in agreement. We don't have to be, because I already give you the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately, it seems I cannot be afforded the same benefit.
It's easy to be indignant, even self-righteous, when presented with what you think is a clear indication of abuse or neglect or....whatever. There's certainly enough of that here; I empathized with the OP rather than pointing a finger at whatever might make me feel superior. I KNOW how it can be, and brought that to the table. So it's disappointing to have the assumption of the worst thrown at me, rather than acknowledging there must have been a lot more going on that isn't said.
I have had one nursing job in a busy lvl 1 ED. Roughly 75+k visits a year. We almost always get a lunch. If we don't we get paid. No forms to fill out, no permission needed. We simply don't clock out.
That said if you don't take a lunch consistently you are talked to. This is night shift, but our managers do a good job of getting coverage even if we're short.
My thought process is they are either going to pay me for my lunch that I didnt take or for the 30 mins I stay over to clean up things. Less flack for staying over 30 cause I can also "document" why I was late punching out. I also FORCE my other staff on the floor to go and take their breaks too, as I am charge.
I can't answer the question of don't know vs. don't care, but I have to comment on the pee thing. Nobody is going to die if you use the bathroom!!!You are a professional, not a slave..not even a serf. You don't have to ask permission to go to the BR. You go.
Call lights can ring for two minutes. Phone can ring, or the caller has the option to wait on hold or leave a message. The pt can wait two minutes for her antibiotic or pain meds. If an MD approaches you about helping w/ a procedure, you say "I will be there in two minutes." If a CNA needs help w/ a transfer, "I will be there in two minutes." If a pt is discharging and their ride is here, "I will be there in two minutes."
The only thing that really can't wait two minutes is a coding pt.
Sure in code situations, our needs have to wait...but really, where do you work that your pts are constantly coding? I work in a level 1 trauma/neuro/SICU, in between a level 1 trauma PICU and a very busy MICU and a regional burn unit. We don't even have a code every single day!
Practice in front of the mirror if you need to--practice saying, "I will be there in two minutes."
You are a professional. You do not have to risk a UTI, incontinence, or even extreme bladder discomfort. You will be there in two minutes.
There have been days when I didn't even get to PEE much less eat. I've frequently gone 13-14 hours without sitting (charted standing up) and have fought hard to get to the bathroom just to sit for 60 seconds. After I report that I am going to pee and get permission, of course. How can employers get away with that?
It's so ridiculous that I'm even sometimes a little jealous of the patients. I spend hours helping people to the bathroom but don't get to go myself. And I find myself staring at the patient's food trays because I haven't eaten in 12hrs or had a drink of water because we're not allowed to have any cups anywhere but the break room. Ha! I didn't realize nurses were NPO too.
Yes, we are told we can have that break but there is pressure never to leave the floor if there is anything that needs to be done. And with management decreasing staffing and demanding higher Press Ganey scores, there is no time. Still, according to management, it's your own fault if you didn't take a lunch.
My question is are they aware and simply don't care? Or are they disconnected from what really goes on in the unit and really believe it's our fault for not getting a lunch?
Now for what to do--at least, what I do--on those days when we truly cannot take a lunch. I say "truly" because sometimes you just have to go. There will ALWAYS be work to do, so if you deem that nothing can wait 30 minutes, sure you'll probably never get to go.
But routine meds--you have a one-hour window. Call lights--everybody is responsible for them. Just like when it's not YOUR pt, you can't just let the light ring forever. If YOU are on break, the other nurses and CNAs are responsible for addressing the pt's needs. Is it convenient for everyone else for you to take a break, probably not...but that's not a reason that you can't take your legally entitled and physiologically needed break. Likewise, you have to be willing to put up w/ some inconvenience so that your colleagues can take theirs.
And for the record, although I am an ICU nurse, I have dealt with multi-pt assignments plenty. I started in med-surg, I've worked in the subacute rehab of a SNF, and I've worked in the purgatory of acute care--LTACH. I've spent about 1/3 of my career in ICUs. So yes, I do know what it's like to have 7 pts...I've had 5 of them on tele and ventilators.
So what to do? Fortunately, I've worked with colleagues who were/are supportive of the need to go eat lunch. If they did gripe, I didn't lose sleep over it. Their reaction to my legally entitled and physically/mentally needed break is THEIR choice, not mine. All I can do is choose my OWN attitude for when they need theirs...which is "Okay, enjoy!" :)
I have been spoken to about time management a couple of times over the years. Generally what happens is I prioritize pt care, prioritize my lunch, and then have to stay late to document. So in my review when the subject of OT came up, I'd say "This is exactly how many minutes I've had to sit down during the past week's shifts. My 8.5 hours were otherwise filled with routine care, call lights, admits/discharges, assisting the other nurse, etc. And then I took 30 minutes for lunch because I don't skip lunch. So with all due respect, either I shirk pt care and finish by 1530, or I take care of my NURSING duties and chart between 1530-1550. Those are my choices, and I can't in good conscience choose option 1."
I do my best to encourage others when they didn't take a lunch--"Make sure you put in for no lunch! You work too hard to work for free." And I ALWAYS put in for no lunch. Management hasn't questioned it, but if they did--"I don't know if others put in for their missed lunches because it's none of my business. But I didn't take one, and if I don't put in for it that means I've worked 30 minutes for free."
As for Press-Ganey scores...we as a profession have to stop being so afraid of them. Do our jobs well and let the chips fall where they may. Management has been able to use them as an iron sword because their staffs allow them to. Your legally entitled and mentally/physically needed breaks trump survey scores, and if your manager actually tells you that your absence for 30 minutes has dropped the scores, it is FINE to remind them of this.
Now we don't have to be rude or *****y about it. I don't know, I might come across with what I've said as a loud stubborn person, but I'm actually more quiet-but-firm. I've never been chastised for standing up for myself because I'm not rude about it, but I do stand up for myself. Everyone should.
I can't answer the question of don't know vs. don't care, but I have to comment on the pee thing. Nobody is going to die if you use the bathroom!!!You are a professional, not a slave..not even a serf. You don't have to ask permission to go to the BR. You go.
Call lights can ring for two minutes. Phone can ring, or the caller has the option to wait on hold or leave a message. The pt can wait two minutes for her antibiotic or pain meds. If an MD approaches you about helping w/ a procedure, you say "I will be there in two minutes." If a CNA needs help w/ a transfer, "I will be there in two minutes." If a pt is discharging and their ride is here, "I will be there in two minutes."
The only thing that really can't wait two minutes is a coding pt.
Sure in code situations, our needs have to wait...but really, where do you work that your pts are constantly coding? I work in a level 1 trauma/neuro/SICU, in between a level 1 trauma PICU and a very busy MICU and a regional burn unit. We don't even have a code every single day!
Practice in front of the mirror if you need to--practice saying, "I will be there in two minutes."
You are a professional. You do not have to risk a UTI, incontinence, or even extreme bladder discomfort. You will be there in two minutes.
On any given day there are 4-6 nurses on my unit. We usually average 4, so I'll go with 4.
We average about $25 an hour. Some more, some less.
That's $100 a night.
$700 a week.
$36,400 a year. ONE UNIT. Multiply that by units in the hospital.
That's an automatic deduction. It's up to each nurse to make the effort to recoup that $25 when we work through lunch.
Sometimes I'm tired and I just want to go home. I don't fill out the paperwork. Or somebody else has the time book.
We used to have to run the house supervisor down to have a form signed.
Anyway, you can see why the hospital automatically deducts that hour, and why they make us jump through hoops to get it back.
also along those lines, for individual nurses: say you work 3 shifts a week and are paid $25/hr. If you don't take a lunch AND don't get paid for that 30 minutes, you're giving your employer $37.50 /week of work for FREE.
If you work 50 weeks a year (we'll assume the other two weeks you're on vacation), that's $1875. Almost $2k! What could you do with an extra $2k in your bank account?
I sympathize with the PP's coworker who would always insist on taking her breaks. The only way to affect real change, though, is if *everyone* has the guts to stand up and fight *together*.
Specializes in Oncology; medical specialty website.
I re-read the posts, and I can see how this reads, but it's not what you're picturing. As I said before, there was enough short-staffing and enough of a workload that it simply wasn't manageable to expect to take on another patient assignment (9 patients each on nights) for lunchbreaks. To call it "bullying" to say to someone "I can't manage my own load right now, I cannot possibly do anything other than PRN for you, YOU have to set everything up ahead of time or pick it up afterward" seems ridiculous to me. She WAS unpopular to work with, because what I didn't tell you was that she had no problem NOT giving meds she COULD give before she left, she just expected the others to do it for her. And that's FINE if there was enough time for all, but.....there just wasn't. You might even say she was bullying the rest into doing her work.....but I didn't go there.
I never said it was a good situation, it was an awful situation, and I was only putting it out there as a means to let the OP know that this can and does happen, that it's not unique. It would be wonderful if everyone's efforts to convince management actually worked; you have a lot of questions as to why this wasn't attempted but you don't know what WAS attempted, and failed. Again, as I said before, there was quite a lot to the saga, and it did result in the "voting with the feet" solution.
What I am surprised about is that in the years I have been posting here, with all the things I have said with which you have been in agreement, have KNOWN where I stand on so many issues, and still you are seeing the blackest, most disagreeable possibility in what I've written here. I know you aren't seeing the full picture, as I also said, but you don't seem to recognize that (based on what you DO know about what I write and who I seem to be). Over the years I have enjoyed reading your posts, and have respect for where you are coming from, even if we aren't 100% in agreement. We don't have to be, because I already give you the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately, it seems I cannot be afforded the same benefit.
It's easy to be indignant, even self-righteous, when presented with what you think is a clear indication of abuse or neglect or....whatever. There's certainly enough of that here; I empathized with the OP rather than pointing a finger at whatever might make me feel superior. I KNOW how it can be, and brought that to the table. So it's disappointing to have the assumption of the worst thrown at me, rather than acknowledging there must have been a lot more going on that isn't said.
Specializes in Acute Care - Adult, Med Surg, Neuro.
On the flip side, I used to work with a nurse who would declare it was her break time, and walk off the floor. Charge couldn't do anything because she WAS entitled to a break, and since none could be officially scheduled (too many variables in patient load on off-shifts) there wasn't much to do. Except have the nursing supervisor talk to her about breaking only when there was sufficient coverage, but we all knew what a crock THAT was. So....she took her breaks but we all were KILLING ourselves trying to cover those 30 minutes. And, yes, she got paid back FULLY by having no one available to help her at other times, and sometimes her meds were late or missed. Nice? No. But sometimes it gets ugly when only one person takes a lunch..... and everyone else is tired of covering. I can tell you that at one point, she DID stop that, finally, when it became clear to her she was VERY unpopular to work with!
Just wanted to second this. Often other nurses will go on break and those of us left on the floor are scrambling to keep up with call lights and patient needs. Then we fall behind and aren't able to take OUR breaks. I appreciate the right of everybody to to a take, but it doesn't seem possible sometimes to fairly distribute it.
Yall are crazy. Busy or not, I'm going to the bathroom and at least taking a 30 regardless unless someone is literally dying! Period. I am not a martyr for my patients.
This.
I find time; buddy with a nurse, WHATEVER tactics I need to go, even just letting SOMEONE know I'm going to the bathroom, or having someone watch my patients while I do the same, and help them out, I'm doing it.
Nothing is that is dire that a handoff can't work; I just was having this conversation with a new nurse this morning; the new nurse made the assumption that other nurses were "busy" instead of speaking up and taking a lunch, or seeking the float nurse-me, out, although I kept checking on the nurse. Tonight, that nurse WILL be taking a break!
NicuGal, MSN, RN
2,743 Posts
Is this your whole unit? Inwould be signing no lunch for sure.