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Where do you stand on opening things up during the Pandemic?

Disasters   (1,699 Views | 32 Replies)

DribbleKing97 specializes in ACE.

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herring_RN has 48 years experience as a ASN, BSN and specializes in Critical care, tele, Medical-Surgical.

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Only one state has yet to begin reopening and it will do so Wednesday

Stay-at-home or shelter-in-place orders around country have been lifted in almost every state and some restrictions on businesses and public places have been eased...

...   Expanded testing, tracking contacts of people who had the virus, improved treatment options and vaccine development are important factors for states staying open or expanding their reopenings, health experts say.

More than 90,000 Americans have died. Tens of millions of people have filed for unemployment...

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2020/us/states-reopen-coronavirus-trnd/

 

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FullGlass has 2 years experience as a BSN, MSN, NP and specializes in Adult and Geriatric Primary Care.

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8 hours ago, malamud69 said:

Point is that the flu argument/nonsense is the apples to oranges comparison a vociferous minority loves to tout...Why not use the “Chewbacca is a wookey “ defense or a select read from Dr. Seuss...that’s my point.

 

Respectfully, I disagree.  It is indeed valid to compare the deaths from other diseases to the deaths from COVID as a way to calibrate appropriate response.  There are diseases with much higher fatality rates, such as Ebola. 

With regard to the flu, as I previously posted, we have had 3 flu seasons in the 20th century that killed 100,000 people or more.  The Spanish Flu killed 675,000 Americans, far more than COVID will kill, and that was the last time the US took extraordinary measures.  Even then, the lockdowns were not at the level they are today.

The odds of anyone dying from COVID are very low.  While this varies by age group and risk factor, it is generally below 1%.  COVID is scary because it is brand new, we don't know a lot about it, there is no proven treatment, cure, or vaccine.  But we have data for about 3 months now, so here is what we do know in the US:

1.  The fatality rate overall is anywhere from 0.5% to 0.1% or lower.  

2.  We know the risk factors that place some people at higher risk for contracting a serious illness or even dying.

3.  We have flattened the curve in the US, which was the stated purpose of the lockdowns.  So there is no reason to continue.

4.  The majority of counties in the US never even had one single COVID case.

Life is full of risk.  Every day, just getting up out of bed, we take a risk.  People die every day from random events and bad lifestyle choices.  At this point, the people who are not at high risk for COVID and are willing to take a very reasonable risk to get back to work and resume their lives should be able to do so, given the low death rate.  (And continuing to take reasonable precautions).  And yes, we do not shut down the country for the flu, and we have had years in which the flu death rate hit 100,000 people or higher.

Individuals at high risk should continue to take extra precautions.

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Kitiger has 40 years experience as a RN and specializes in Private Duty Pediatrics.

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21 hours ago, FullGlass said:

And as for a vaccine - we may never have one.  We have never developed a vaccine for any coronavirus so we can't have a lockdown until there is a vaccine - that is ludicrous.  And even if we had a vaccine, only 50% or less Americans get the flu vaccine.  Why would anyone assume all Americans are going to rush to get another vaccine for COVID?  In fact, last week, Fauci (who I don't care for) stated a vaccine may make the virus more harmful!

 

And this is why we need the appropriate testing done before any vaccine is offered to the public. Rushing it through is dangerous.

https://zdoggmd.com/h1n1-covid-vaccine/?fbclid=IwAR13GA1Zqkmty6ssRRr8DZqI5r0pi78OGXtQAQmVEUFAt-1TuexXsKqnyjI

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Uroboros has 16 years experience as a APRN and specializes in Advanced Practice Critical Care and Family Nursing.

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On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2020 at 9:43 PM, FullGlass said:

We simply cannot keep the lockdown going much longer.  People are starting to go out more and more.  You can't expect people to stay in isolation this long.

We were told the point of the lockdown is to flatten the curve.  We have done that.  Therefore, the justification for the lockdown no longer exists.

Financial disaster causes health disasters.  In addition, the exclusive focus on COVID has caused many much-needed treatments to go undone and has terrorized patients from going to hospitals even in emergencies like heart attack and stroke.  Many people have already died as a result.

A depression will result in massive unemployment, poverty, homelessness, suicides, drug abuse and ODs, and all other poverty and despair-associated medical and mental problems.  We have already seen increases in these issues.  In addition, our supply chain and agriculture have been disrupted, causing food shortages.  Since the US is a food exporter, hundreds of millions of people around the world will starve if our system is disrupted. And if the US economy tanks, it will pull the rest of the world down with it.  Poor countries will then literally have people starving to death.

Finally, trying to enforce a prolonged, likely unconstitutional lockdown (I mean if it is extended longer) will result in civil unrest.  It's already happening.  

The Wisconsin lockdown has been deemed unconstitutional by their state supreme court and more such lawsuits are coming.  

We still don't know very much about COVID and now there is some evidence that the lockdowns may not prevent spread of the disease as much as was thought.  

There are experts who now think the lockdown has caused more harm than good.

There is already evidence that childhood vaccinations have gone down, as many primary care facilities were closed or only seeing more urgent cases in person.

And as for a vaccine - we may never have one.  We have never developed a vaccine for any coronavirus so we can't have a lockdown until there is a vaccine - that is ludicrous.  And even if we had a vaccine, only 50% or less Americans get the flu vaccine.  Why would anyone assume all Americans are going to rush to get another vaccine for COVID?  In fact, last week, Fauci (who I don't care for) stated a vaccine may make the virus more harmful!

We now know the high risk groups - those folks can continue to self-isolate and take extra precautions  The rest of us can observe social distancing, wear masks, practice good hand hygiene, etc, but we need to get back to work!

Sorry I am tired, so did not include all my sources, but I have previously posted on this and my points are easily googled.

 

There's a quote here from the end of my posting, followed by an editorial that has little if anything to do with the citation? Respectfully, rather than an ongoing litany of emotions run rampant, can you relate your ideas to the Matthew Effect or Pareto Lines in current economics that I did mention? Given your financial concerns this would provide an objective thought process and discussion.

Espousing derivations regarding health effects from merely two months of mandated social isolation is echoing more personal concern, and understandably, rather than evidence based community medicine. If anything the consumerism behaviors  are more apparent during social lockdowns, since Amazon recorded an all time high in sales some 75 billion, yes billion, with 60% of that in America alone. Hardly an economic crisis wouldn't you say?

So our system is hardly in the financial dire straits just based on Amazon, eBay, and general auto sales alone. An idea the "world will starve is our system fails" is hardly the case. Made in America is an idea that died in the 60's, along with the steel and coal industries. This is finally beginning to effect big oil. Simply put, America is a consumer nation, and supplies little if anything apart from financial support to international economies. Read up on The Club of Rome, a social justice league from the 70's that broadcasted similar fears of world starvation and over population by the year 2000. They included the likes of Rockefellers, Morgenthau, and some 75 of the supposedly most brilliant philanthropists, scientists, and economists of the time. Obviously they were all quite wrong, and did not accurately account for epochs of technology advances since then.

It's quite self evident that America needs to, and is reopening. Any base or lay person would agree. Tension between my nursing optimism and pessimism often gets the best of me, but hope remains as the thinking gate keepers to healthcare we use hints and hedges from our history, rather than fall prey to current anxiety and fear which simply are byproducts of the unknown. And it's just that we should argue the most against, while protecting at risk populations. The idea that these people groups should simply fend for themselves with hygienic methodology such as face masks and hand washing is a bit preposterous. After all, without severely diluting the issue, failure to adhere to those menial tasks is what leads to pandemic events. Exposure therapy is well proven in clinical psychology, but should hardly be the technique applied to a novel virus, with however varying mortality rates. Would any right minded parent think to throw their child into the dark unknown, simply to overcome the fear faster?

Continuing to predicate our derivations in archetypical comparison traps by citing influenza trends or Great Depression similarities is misleading ideology. Keep in mind, COVID did in a few months what those historic issues took years to inflict. Look I'm not here to deflate anyone's position in the interest of pretention, and we all have the sovereign right to opinion. And were this issue a simple arithmetic equation there would be no discussion to be had either. Yet I do believe the APRN is in a unique role of separating good empiric science from existential fodder for ourselves, family, communities, if not now more than ever. Appreciate your efforts in fighting the good fight.

 

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Uroboros has 16 years experience as a APRN and specializes in Advanced Practice Critical Care and Family Nursing.

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On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2020 at 11:47 PM, Texas Military Mom said:

Hello All,

My stance on the issue is summarized in a few words. It is time to get back to business.

Regards,

Tiffany McGrue Ford, RN, MSN

You do realize we are all anonymous here for good reason?Truly, just a friendly warning.

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Nurse SMS has 9 years experience as a MSN, RN and specializes in Critical Care; Cardiac; Professional Development.

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I think we have no choice but to reopen. I wish people would abide by the guidelines. I wish both sides would get out of the way of good information sharing and that the opinions of professionals and not politicians would guide things. I believe that the numbers are now so skewed and the waters so muddy that we have let chaos take over. As such, I will do what I can do to protect myself and my family and accept that this is more likely to get worse before it gets better. There is no way to know anymore what is or isn’t real.

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Just now, Nurse SMS said:

I think we have no choice but to reopen. I wish people would abide by the guidelines. I wish both sides would get out of the way of good information sharing and that the opinions of professionals and not politicians would guide things. I believe that the numbers are now so skewed and the waters so muddy that we have let chaos take over. As such, I will do what I can do to protect myself and my family and accept that this is more likely to get worse before it gets better. There is no way to know anymore what is or isn’t real.

In what way are "both sides" getting in the way of good information? I think this is equivocation designed to excuse the behavior and attitudes of those pushing against the science...to normalize that selfish behavior by suggesting that it somehow is representative of more than one small segment of political extremism interjected into a public health emergency. 

Yes, there are very good ways to discern what is true and real.  

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Nurse SMS has 9 years experience as a MSN, RN and specializes in Critical Care; Cardiac; Professional Development.

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21 hours ago, toomuchbaloney said:

In what way are "both sides" getting in the way of good information? I think this is equivocation designed to excuse the behavior and attitudes of those pushing against the science...to normalize that selfish behavior by suggesting that it somehow is representative of more than one small segment of political extremism interjected into a public health emergency. 

Yes, there are very good ways to discern what is true and real.  

Believe me, I am no fan of the GOP. I loathe Trump to a level that would be impolite to express. Please do not mistake me for excusing the political nonsense that comes out of his mouth or that of his yes-men. I believe in science, peer review, properly conducted studies and the need for time to figure this thing out.

 I believe numbers have been over-reported, under-reported, differently reported, differently counted, hidden, etc. I have little to no trust in almost any of the information I am seeing and I believe them to be estimated much lower than they are. In other words, I think this thing is even worse than we are being told.

I believe that China has not been forthcoming with information on the virus. I don't believe any of the conspiracy theories. I believe there are definitely articles and reports out there intended to hype up people's fear. I believe staying locked down would be the sensible thing to do from an epidemiology standpoint, but I also believe that Americans on the whole lack resilience and we already know most are living in debt on a level that they are one to two paychecks away from catastrophe. I don't think staying locked down is realistic. That's just me being resigned. I don't say it with any bravado or rant. It's just my nursing assessment. I don't think our citizens are capable of doing what it takes to truly stop this train. So, just like with my patients, I have the things I would like them to do and then there are the things they might actually do.

I am weary of this whole thing, not because I want to see family and friends. I am emotionally wrung out from the constant information onslaught and the contradictory nature of it. I don't much trust the CDC after having worked directly with them during the ebola crisis and after seeing them completely capitulate on what safe practice standards are, both then and now.

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CaffeinePOQ4HPRN has 10 years experience as a BSN, MSN, LPN, RN.

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We do need to re-open the economy! However, things cannot go back to the status quo. We have to do things differently and we need people with the proper education/experience (ex. urban planners, healthcare/medical providers, scientific researchers) guiding each phase while also engaging community advocates to ensure we're not trying to jam a square peg in a round hole because different communities have different needs (esp. underserved/rural/remote communities)...

What we need less of are armchair experts who live in a bubble of privilege and ignorance attempting to direct these changes... people who don't have any foundation but achieved their positions through privilege/nepotism/etc.  I fear for humanity in the US.

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