Kind of jumping off of the "atheists & dying pts" thread, it got me thinking on this subject. Living in the heartland and working in the upper South, it used to be it wasn't wrong at all to ask your pt who was dying if he or she "had made their peace with God". I know working in the hospital the thing to do is to call the chaplain and let them deal with it if the pt desires.
However, what about those who work in LTC? I remember several times when I used to work in LTC several years ago, the family would come in just frantic that Grandma/Uncle Bob/whoever was dying and wasn't saved, and just sure he/she would go to hell. The family didn't feel, for whatever reason, that they should bring it up, so they'd ask the nurses. I had no problem with it at the time, that is my personal view of religion, so I would do it, telling the pt that the family was worried, etc.
Of course nowdays that would be very un-PC, and potentially offending to the pt to ask in that manner. Would a question about "peace with God" to a fairly alert pt be wrong in that circumstance, or just maybe a question about wanting to see a clergy person be more appropriate?
I am asking this based on the viewpoint of the pt, who may or may not have a religious preference, not the nurse's religion.
Everytime I have been admitted into a hospital, there has been a question about religious preference. Is this not noted on the pt's charts, or in the database?
I've never worked in a hospital, as I am just starting school, but doesn't the hospital chaplain go around to the different LTC rooms anyway?
I would think asking patients if they would like the chaplain, or someone else, to come speak with them would be ok. I would definately say a silent prayer for them, and their family.
Why do we have to be "PC"? Why can't we just use simple commonsense and ask a simple question straight up? It shouldn't be necessary to clear cut a forest to obtain enough paper with which to desribe appropriate questions. Either we should be providing "spiritual support services" or we shouldn't. If the conclusion is that we should (as we are currently taught in nursing school) then we need to ask the relevent questions that will make that possible.
are you talking about on admission or on their deathbed?
My father-in-law is 80 yrs. old and a devout atheist. We brought him down here to an assisted living facility in the South to be closer to us(he is from Jersey). What bothers him the most is that three or four times a week crowds of church people pour through the facility praying for everyone and the only conversations they are interested in engaging in are ones that have to do with the Lord and Jesus.
I don't consider myself an atheist but am not a church-goer and I understand fully what he means when he talks about what a turn off these people are.
That is why I have made it a point to not even suggest religion to sick and dying people. If they are religious they or their family will let you know. I just ask them if there is anyone I can call for them. If they say "a minister" I'll do my best to see I can contact one.
My mother and father in law were at the hospital today and did a church service with mostly music and a little sermon type talk given by another woman. My 3 year old went with them and sang along. He held hands with the residents and talked to them and they loved it. There is a different denominational service 3 times a week. They don't roam the halls praying for you or invading your room or space. I think it is a wonderful gift to give some of these folks, who had a religious background, some time to sing together. I would never advocate for anyone to force themselves on anyone. I'm sorry that has been your experience. The services at my hospital are held in the dining room, away from the resident's rooms. You can attend or not.
I'm grateful for this experience for my son.
It would be like having a jazz night on Tuesdays and a swing music night on Friday. If you don't like jazz, don't go.
I think Roland is right and that you don't have to worry about being politically correct, just ask straightforward questions.
Obviously, when someone is on their death bed you should strive to be especially caring. Ideally, you would deal with these issues before that point. However, I still believe that simple, direct, questions are best albeit perhaps not PC:
1. Do you have any particular spiritual or religious beliefs?
2. If so is there anyone we can call for you?
3. Do you believe in prayer, and if so would you like me to pray for you (or have prayers said for you by others)?
I don't think that either Carl Segan (a famous atheist) or Mother Teresa would be offended by these questions.
Obviously, when someone is on their death bed you should strive to be especially caring. Ideally, you would deal with these issues before that point. However, I still believe that simple, direct, questions are best albeit perhaps not PC:
1. Do you have any particular spiritual or religious beliefs?
2. If so is there anyone we can call for you?
3. Do you believe in prayer, and if so would you like me to pray for you (or have prayers said for you by others)?
I don't think that either Carl Segan (a famous atheist) or Mother Teresa would be offended by these questions.
then we agree.
i don't believe in beating around the bush but tact and sensitivity should always be foremost.
Our hospital asks on admission if they have any religious preference. Nice and non threatening. If they say no, then "non" is printed on their stamps (we label everything with stickers not stamp plates). It may say Bap, Cat, LDS, Lut, Jew, Mos or whatever. This alone gives a quick heads up. I have asked patients if they had a spiritual leader I could contact, but nothing more threatening than that.
15 years ago, my mother was dying in a hospital at the ripe old age of 55. Some members of a church (not my mothers church) came by and essentially told her that if she was not healed, it would be because she lacked faith. They said all would be healed if they had sufficient faith. So was her death her own fault? Does our faith or lack of faith take God out of the loop? Whatever happened to God's will? What ever happened to our own free will? Since that happened, I have been even more sensitive to the patients spiritual needs. If I am on my deathbed, the last thing I want is some judgemental, self righteous nurse trying to make sure my soul is saved. My salvation is strictly between God and me. So be very, very careful where you tred, no matter what your motivations may be.
If a person tells you they have no religious needs, then leave it at that. Don't follow up and ask them if they believe in prayer, or want others to pray for them. If the seeds of faith have been planted in this person in any way, believe me, when they are looking death in the face, they will turn to it. If not, it is not our place to try to "save them".
Obviously, when someone is on their death bed you should strive to be especially caring. Ideally, you would deal with these issues before that point. However, I still believe that simple, direct, questions are best albeit perhaps not PC:
1. Do you have any particular spiritual or religious beliefs?
2. If so is there anyone we can call for you?
3. Do you believe in prayer, and if so would you like me to pray for you (or have prayers said for you by others)?
I don't think that either Carl Segan (a famous atheist) or Mother Teresa would be offended by these questions.
Roland, those questions are perfectly PC because they do not assume the patient SHOULD believe a certain thing. There is a difference between saying "Have you accepted Jesus as your savior?" and "Do you have any religious or spiritual beliefs?". Simple and direct doesn't automatically exclude them from being PC and those questions you posted are all three.
Dixielee - I'm sorry someone twisted God into such a terrible vision for your mom. There unfortunately is a faction who believe that if you have enough faith you can heal yourself or that God will heal you and that is a meanspirited thing to do to someone who is sick and/or dying.
Plus, it isn't true. God does heal but it has little to do with how big our faith is. God also says no.
There is alot I don't understand about God but I love learning.
They don't roam the halls praying for you or invading your room or space. I think it is a wonderful gift to give some of these folks, who had a religious background, some time to sing together. I would never advocate for anyone to force themselves on anyone. I'm sorry that has been your experience. The services at my hospital are held in the dining room, away from the resident's rooms. You can attend or not.
steph
That is exactly what they *should* be doing, but they don't. In fact, we have the exact same situation at the nursing home where I work. The *do* offer services in the dining room, however, most residents do not want to go so the business office people tell us to be pushy and get as many people in the dining room as we can talk into going so the facility won't be embarrassed. Not that all these folks are atheists, but most of them are just not interested in church going anymore. They are tired and want to be left alone.
If you don't come to the dining room they will come to you. After services they walk the halls looking for people to preach to. I believe many of them have good intentions but there are some who are downright pushy and obnoxious.
Friday nights the Mennonite church comes and goes from hall to hall singing hymns. I might be an old grouch but I find their singing terribly annoying and an invasion of the other resident's privacy. In fact, one night they were singing "I feel like going home...." and I was in the room with a resident and she looked at me and said "I wish they WOULD go home!"
This doesn't mean I think churches should not come offer services in the dining room. There are some who do want to go. But I think the facility should see to it that they keep it to the dining room.
During my undergrad and grad education I came to know that spirituality was not necessarily equal to religion. Religion can be part of a persons spirituality, but not always. A lead in question such as, "What gives you strength during times of stress?" can open up a dialogue with a patient about their core belief system and values. If religion is an important part of a patients life, they would most likely include that in their answer.
One general definition of spirituality is:
"Our spirituality is reflected in the values and ideals that we hold most dear, our sense of who we are and where we come from, our beliefs about why we are here--the meaning and purpose we see in our lives--and our connectedness to each other and to the world around us."
It's not my definition, but I can't remember the source, nor did I write it down.
During my undergrad and grad education I came to know that spirituality was not necessarily equal to religion. Religion can be part of a persons spirituality, but not always. A lead in question such as, "What gives you strength during times of stress?" can open up a dialogue with a patient about their core belief system and values. If religion is an important part of a patients life, they would most likely include that in their answer.
One general definition of spirituality is:
"Our spirituality is reflected in the values and ideals that we hold most dear, our sense of who we are and where we come from, our beliefs about why we are here--the meaning and purpose we see in our lives--and our connectedness to each other and to the world around us."
It's not my definition, but I can't remember the source, nor did I write it down.
That is exactly what we are learning in our nursing class now. That we need to ask if a person is spiritual, and how can I help them to address their spiritual needs while in our facility.
Our instructor told us a funny story about when she used to work in ICU in a Catholic hospital. A hospital priest was making rounds in the ICU, and stopped into one woman's room and asked if she had any needs he could address. She said, "But Father, I'm Jewish!" to which he said, "Well, I'm Catholic, but if you won't hold it against me, I won't hold it against you!" They had a good chuckle and she did end up talking with him for quite a while.
I think people, especially those that are sick or dying, may find comfort in something they have never tried before, or may in their dying moments find God or spirituality. Should we push anything on them? Absolutely not. But the offer should always be there that even if the devout Athiest feels like speaking with a minister or rabbi or whatever, they should know the offer is always there.
This all relates back to the admission assessment.
With an alert and oriented person they are able to make their wishes known.....that was all I was saying.
That this issue would already have been addressed, and if Uncle Bob and Aunt Jane came in in a tizzy about their family member, there wouldn't be anything realistic one could do, unless one was asked or otherwise called upon by the alert patient/resident.
MZachry
80 Posts
Everytime I have been admitted into a hospital, there has been a question about religious preference. Is this not noted on the pt's charts, or in the database?
I've never worked in a hospital, as I am just starting school, but doesn't the hospital chaplain go around to the different LTC rooms anyway?
I would think asking patients if they would like the chaplain, or someone else, to come speak with them would be ok. I would definately say a silent prayer for them, and their family.