What is with these martyrs?

Agnus · Nov 17, 2003

Did you know until good ol' Flossy Nightingale nurses were primairly MEN.

She introduced the idea of using women as nurses. Physicians LOVED the idea.

Why?

Because women willingly subjagate themselves. They were obedient and did not question doctors and they would work for a lot less compensation.

So naturally the idea a Flossy's training programs flurished. And think about how nurses were tradidionally trained. We haven't moved far from that model. Actually I don't think we have moved at all from that basic model.

hoolahan, ASN, RN · Nov 17, 2003

Originally posted by oramar
I was pulled to ICU just to assist, I did just nursing assistant type stuff. Didn't mind at all. However they had five patients with 2 ICU nurses. Let me tell you things were wild. An admission was on the way. The supervisor came and asked how things were. I spoke the truth, "totally overwhelming." She said the rest of the hospital was quiet and she would stay and take the admission. Would you believe one of the nurses spoke up and said, "Oh, I will take the admission, you don't have to do it". You got to be kidding me. I restated my case and the supervisor did stay. What would we have done without the extra pair of hands I don't know.

Oramar, not sure I agree with your assessment of this nurse as a martyr. Granted, I was not in your shoes. But being that you are not an ICU nurse, which I assume from the fact that you just did "nursing assistant-type stuff", then maybe you were seeing it with different eyes than the regular ICU nurses. Any ICU nurse w 3 pt's is busy!! But, could it just be that this nurse recognizes that a supervisor needs to be available for the whole house. How will it help if she has to get called to get something from pharmacy, or to a code on a med-surg unit?

Maybe it was enough for this nurse to know that the supervisor already did help them by sending you, you can start IV's, give many IV meds, hang blood, take vitals, and do many procedures too, and maybe she is just grateful that she has a supervisor who is so willing to help out. I know I would have killed for that too, but I probably wouldn't have used her either, or I would have but only to do admit paperwork or to take off orders, but not to be obligated to stay on the unit, and possibly be interrupted by calls, which is not giving the pt what he deserves either.

I know in the hospitals I worked supervisors did not sit on their butts in an office looking cute, they worked very hard, and I realize they can't do their job and be staff, at least not for shift, unless the situation is absolutely desperate. If they were sitting on their butts it was to sit w my pt's crashing family member b/c I was busy doing CPR, or making calls to arrange for helicopter transport, or calling the medical director b/c some doctor was attempting a procedure that was unsafe. I say supervisors and charge nurses need to be available and should not be staff, but should function in a way that they will pitch in and do whatever they can when they have down time. Sounds like this supervisor is a gem.

Todd SPN · Nov 17, 2003

Originally posted by Agnus
Did you know until good ol' Flossy Nightingale nurses were primairly MEN.

She introduced the idea of using women as nurses. Physicians LOVED the idea.

Why?

Because women willingly subjagate themselves. They were obedient and did not question doctors and they would work for a lot less compensation.

So naturally the idea a Flossy's training programs flurished. And think about how nurses were tradidionally trained. We haven't moved far from that model. Actually I don't think we have moved at all from that basic model.

Why? Because it put more men on the battlefield with guns in hand.

Less compensation? So it is the women's fault that we have low wages. I wonder how the women felt back then, actually a place for them in the work force.

I was visiting with a 80 something y/o resident who was a retired RN. She spoke of her training which was done in a hospital. While being trained, she had to reside at the hospital, had one uniform that had to be washed nightly. She spoke of hypo needles that needed to be sharpened in the days before disposables. I doubt I could have made it through that training. Doctor's have always dictated the role of the nurse, as they should.

jemb · Nov 17, 2003

Originally posted by Todd SPN
Doctor's have always dictated the role of the nurse, as they should.

What?!!!! :eek:

Agnus · Nov 17, 2003

Originally posted by Todd SPN
Why? Because it put more men on the battlefield with guns in hand.

Less compensation? So it is the women's fault that we have low wages. I wonder how the women felt back then, actually a place for them in the work force.

I was visiting with a 80 something y/o resident who was a retired RN. She spoke of her training which was done in a hospital. While being trained, she had to reside at the hospital, had one uniform that had to be washed nightly. She spoke of hypo needles that needed to be sharpened in the days before disposables. I doubt I could have made it through that training. Doctor's have always dictated the role of the nurse, as they should.

Ahem. how did we get from women being more complient to taking orders without question to putting men on a battlefield?

I think you are confusing the Crimea War with another aspect of Florence's life all together.

My comments had nothing to do with war.

Have you notice neither Florence's country G.Britain nor the US have been at continual war. The Nightengale schools opened after the crimea not during it.

I am not blaming women for anything. If you look at history women were willing to acept lower wages. For the most part few women actually worked for wages (as compared to today) and when they did they were much lower than men's.

The conditions you describe were conditions for most common people of the day. That have little to do with the basic model.

Your remarks about the physician dictating nursing practice is not correct in 2003 in the US.

In fact if you look at WWII and mre recient ones the nurses in the military are under a different command than physician as physicians do not dictate the role of military nurses.

TeenyBabyRN · Nov 17, 2003

Originally posted by Todd SPN
Doctor's have always dictated the role of the nurse, as they should.

Oh please! Give me a break!

:rolleyes:

Rapheal · Nov 18, 2003

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Todd SPN

Doctor's have always dictated the role of the nurse, as they should.

Heh heh......I am thinkin of last shift when I couldn't get a certain doc to respond to 4 pages. He wasn't interested in dictating nursing roles or seeing sick people.

SmilingBluEyes · Nov 18, 2003

Originally posted by Todd SPN
Doctor's have always dictated the role of the nurse, as they should.

UMMM are you for REAL???????

i dont 'know where to START with this comment. Umm forget it; this NOT EVEN worth another thought. It is laughable.

Never mind, you are not even a nurse yet. I forgive you.:kiss

Lindz · Nov 18, 2003

Hoolahan,

I'm not sure what state you are in, but here in California Nursing Assistants can't start IV's, give IV meds, and only an RN can hang blood. Nursing Assistants most definitely save a busy RN by doing the vitals signs and ADL's. Of course this may be different in PA where the original post is from.

Todd SPN · Nov 18, 2003

Originally posted by jemb
What?!!!!

Referring to the nurses scope of practice. What you find in state satutes.

Todd SPN · Nov 18, 2003

Originally posted by SmilingBluEyes
UMMM are you for REAL???????

i dont 'know where to START with this comment. Umm forget it; this NOT EVEN worth another thought. It is laughable.

Never mind, you are not even a nurse yet. I forgive you.:kiss

I feel a response to your condescending remarks are warranted, but I can't figure out how to put it nicely.

Agnus · Nov 18, 2003

Originally posted by Todd SPN
Referring to the nurses scope of practice. What you find in state satutes.

Doctors do not determine nurses scope of practice.

So far you have made inaccurate historical references and now you are making inaccurate legal references.

I suggest that before you step into waters that are over your head you know what you are doing.

It is fine to express an opinion and I am sure you thought you were correct again, on this one. However, this is not an opinion; it again, is clearly a miss-statement of fact.

There are a few states that still have MD's on the BON but even those states do not have the nurses scope of practice set by the MD. Nurses determine the scope of practice.

This is a control that has long ago been snatched from the AMA and the AMB.