What can nurses really do to help our dying profession?

JillR · Nov 26, 2000

WOW!!! Pamala!! Yours is by far the most intellengent post I have read on this forum ever.

Are there others out there like you? If so, get them together and please encourage them to post here. Great post.

PPL, BSN, RN · Nov 26, 2000

Pamela, will you be able to support us during the Million Nurse March? Your voice would be greatly appreciated and well received!

Tim-GNP · Nov 27, 2000

This was indeed a volatile topic. It's amazing how a question about solidarity could cleave such chasms. It is clear that a great deal of resentment does exist in the profession. Some people consider it cliche to say 'nursing eats their young.' I contend that if you read the multiple posts, it becomes apparent that we not only eat our young, but each other.

Whether or not anyone wants to admit it... the Diploma versus ADN, versus BSN debate has segregated nurses like no other debate in nursing. It is a lack of unity that have kept nurses at odds for years. The debate has also been fueled by some nurses with advanced degrees and bad attitudes. Unfortunately, by continuing this debate and keeping nurses at each others throats, nurses are prevented from being unified enough to demand better pay rates and working conditions. A previous poster gave excellent advice on joining your state's nurses assocation. If you really want to improve things... start there!

We also need to stop assuming that nurses with different degrees means that one is a better nurse than the other. I'm happy to say that I also have advanced degrees and certifications in nursing... M.S., R.N., A.P.R.N./B.C.[G.N.P.], C.R.N.P., L.N.H.A. and am working on a Ph.D. I am also happy to say that I am a great nurse, and my patients appear to like me! My degrees don't make me better... they give me the ability to put my own 'spin' on my nursing care. I have worked and continue to work with nurses with ADN's and Diplomas who are excellent nurses. I have seen some nurses who also have M.S. and Ph.D.'s that are just plain idiots! So, the degree does not the nurse make... HOWEVER, in terms of professionalism, and assuring a proper wage, it does matter...

In terms of the original post, which set these wheels in motion, about nurses being underpaid, I will offer my humble opinion as to why based on my knowledge as a Licensed Administrator: In the end, yes... as long as nurses hold less than a B.S. degree, they will make less money. End of subject. As an Administrator of a facility, I would have no choice but to pay more money for a higher degree. ESPECIALLY if I want to recruit the individual. Someone with a Master's degree will usually make more money than someone with a technical diploma [within reason, of course someone with a master's in 18th century poetry probably won't make much money at all].

Does anyone ever hear physicians arguing like this over education? I have NEVER heard a physician say "oh, well... he only has a diploma from his medical college"... or "he's a 'degreed' physician, and doesn't know anything" Has anyone???? I would be shocked if you did. Physicians all have a uniform education [not that I am an advocate of uniformity], but it would help to eliminate the argument. It makes my blood curdle to think what members of other professions [especially physician's] would think if they ever read some of these posts.

rncountry · Nov 27, 2000

The answer is very simple, the million nurse march. We seek to be the new model of nursing. We invite all bedside caregivers to participate, RNs(regardless of degree) LPNs and CNAs. Each of us all play a specific role in the healthcare field, that role should be celebrated, not degraded. Each of us are necessary and all of us are affected by staffing levels and mandatory overtime. These are the two issues that the mnm is focused on. Not only is this a forum for all bedside caregivers to be able to unite under, we give the voice to those frontline caregivers that in the past has not been there. We speak for ourselves, by ourselves. We do not ask a secondary group to filter the message to the public for us. Do you want to be heard without another group speaking for you? Have you decided that you can't continue to wait for someone else to do for you what you can do on your own? If this is something that appeals to you than go to www.millionnursemarch.org sign the guestbook, offer to help, pass the word. This is our organization. Think about the possiblities that are there by uniting all of us together. It's a good thought.

Thank you

Jenny P · Nov 27, 2000

I agree with TIM-GNP about some of these postings. If viewed by anyone in the general public, we wouldn't look like the professionals we claim to be.

The debate about the AD, diploma, and BSN entry levels has been going on for 35 years-- longer than I've been an RN (which sometimes feel like forever, but it's only been 31 years!). If we'd look at teaching, another predominatly female profession, back prior to the 40's (I think it was), they had teachers who'd gone to "normal training" and also college and a few other levels of education to be teachers.Normal training could consist of as few as 6 months of extra schooling after high school and then they could teach in almost any rural setting. But somewhere in the 40's or 50's. they decided to make their basic entry level a 4 year college degree. What did they do? They didn't sit around and fight about which was the best basic entry level; they got their act together and agreed to change. Some were "grandfathered in"(a term meaning that they retained the right to teach with the education they currently had) while most decided to go back and get the college degree they knew they needed. On any of the basic entry level plans for nurses I have seen, the idea of "grandfathering in" nurses has always been included. We want to be considered a profession, then why don't we follow the Educators' lead and just do it. Teachers now have the classroom internship programs built right into their college programs. Why couldn't we, as nurses, follow a similar route?

I also think we wouldn't be in the severe nursing shortage we hear about if federal funding for nursing education hadn't been cut so severely these past 10 years. Young people who may have an interest in nursing look at the money necessary to go to school and then at the funds available; and go to med school where the money is more available to them through grants and loans.

pickledpepperRN · Nov 27, 2000

How can we continue this BSN debate when there are not enough universities offering nursing education?

It was years ago that the University of California eliminated its undergraduate nursing programs.

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babs_rn · Nov 27, 2000

Originally posted by scg:
Get rid of the bad apples. The nurses that do not continue to grow in professionalism and education. Get rid of the back stabbing ones that act like blue collar workers. Make a BSN the only degree for new nurses. Refuse to be belittled by anyone, and quit repeating the sick quote -nurses eat their young-.

The quote will no longer be repeated only when it is no longer so universally true.

Peace.

babs_rn · Nov 27, 2000

Originally posted by scg:
Get rid of the bad apples. The nurses that do not continue to grow in professionalism and education. Get rid of the back stabbing ones that act like blue collar workers. Make a BSN the only degree for new nurses. Refuse to be belittled by anyone, and quit repeating the sick quote -nurses eat their young-.

Let me also say that many, many nurses have been supporting their families and do not have the luxury of continuing their education because in some areas, RN-BSN programs function on the idea (where the hell did they get this idea?)that nurses work M-F 9-5 and can go to school on the weekends and evenings to complete their BSN. In the rural area where I live, nursing is one of the few career options that pays a halfway living wage that women can enter so that is what they do - out of necessity. You can preach professionalism and your ideals all you want. But the fact is, people (and that includes nurses) do what they have to do to survive. Life is tough, nursing is tough, and supporting a family is also very tough. It doesn't leave one with a lot of options. So don't downplay nurses who have worked very hard for the ADN - perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the almost militant attitude of ADN instructors - so that they can support their families and who harbor no intentions of returning for their BSNs. That just may not be a feasible option. Without the ADN option, there would be more rural families in poverty than there already are. Hospitals and healthcare are not reserved for the big cities and neither are nurses.

OC_An Khe · Nov 28, 2000

An RN is an RN period. The debate about ADN vs BSN is about the future of Nursing not the past. Going forward the nurses must unite behind one or the other as an entry level degree. Note ENTRY LEVEL. A compromise that I will borrow from the previosly mentioned Educational field, Teachers entry level is a BA/BS degree and they can begin teaching. However to remain in teaching they have to complete their masters in teaching to maintain their ability to teach. Keep the ADN program but make the BSN the degree that has to be obtained after a certain lenght of time. To the rural RN's that are not near a program, there are many accredited on line programs where you can obtain your BSN working at thetime you choose and at your pace.

gpip · Nov 28, 2000

The only thing I agree with is getting rid of the bad apples, Although it will never happen there are bad apples in every profession.You need to get a clue on the blue collar thing because we as nurses are blue collar, We are laborers. I am currently in a RN/BSN program, I am not doing it because I think I will be a better nurse than my ADN, or Diploma collegues. I did it for me. As the battle rages on about ADN vs BSN remember that we the ADN's make up 64% of the nursing population. I do not think that will ever change and even if it did do you honestly think we would be treated differant. All of us continue to grow everyday regardless if we continue our education or not you grow by doing your job, reading articles, visiting websites, and doing CEU's. Not everyone has the time, energy or desire to go back to school and that is their choice and they should not be chastised for it.

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Zee_RN, BSN, RN · Nov 29, 2000

Originally posted by maikranz:
AMEN 4health.

QUOTE [JOIN your state nurses' association (and, if you want to, you can go to a meeting!!!). We'd love to have you; YOU are our strength as nurses. It costs ~$19 / month to join. Too expensive? What do you pay for a carton of cigarettes? Your cell phone? Beeper? Your manicure? A fill-up of your SUV? ] END QUOTE

In pennsylvania, i have been informed, you can only join the state organization by joining the national organization--which comes to a lot of money. I belong to the association of critical care nurses and appreciate reviewing their literature...would love to go to conferences etc. but how does one fit that in with 40-work-week, kids, house, etc.

[This message has been edited by Zee_RN (edited November 30, 2000).]

mustangsheba · Nov 29, 2000

Good morning all you NURSES! These postings are a good example of why we as nurses have been unable to unite effectively. So diverse. To reiterate what was said before, the degrees that we have reflect where our interests lie, not necessarily our ability as nurses. They can also be a reflection of how much time and money we can afford to invest in education. I have an ADN. I would not go any other way in terms of being able to start almost immediately at the bedside once in nursing school. The best ADN instructors are drill sergeants. Scary! School gives us a strong, broad base on which to begin the ongoing learning process of being a nurse. It is not a degree nor is it stagnant. We learn something new everyday. I am getting an advanced degree, but I chose not to go for a BSN because that degree does not lead to where I want to go. That certainly does not diminish the BSN in any way. We need all of us. All of our skills and various individual gifts no matter what degrees we own. A nurse is what you are in your heart and soul. Education cannot give you that quality. I have been taught by everyone - volunteers, patients, MDs, CNAs, maintenance workers, housekeepers, respiratory therapists, ADNs, BSNs,et. al. Some of this has been negative learning but most has been positive. I would like to be able to suggest a way to weed out the back stabbers and malingerers, who have degrees all across the board. I commend ecb. You are really accomplishing something. We need to stop looking for someplace to assign blame and work together to identify problems and create solutions. That is our job after all. We need a really good care plan. Let's focus on that and stop defocusing on degrees. Peace.