Can we address this line of thinking -"We must demolish diploma factories"? The hubris and the arrogance abounds. If we can take anything away from 2020 it is this, the traditional brick and mortar school needs rethought. It no longer serves a purpose, and is not what the future holds in terms of efficiency and sustainability.
The original post below this one fails to recognize the actual problem our society faces, that being "traditional universities". These institutions no longer exist to produce a beneficial product, if this was the case we would not have thousands of people demanding loan forgiveness; if the product is sound, why would it need subsidized?
The real problem is simply this, universities are now centers to push one-sided ideologies, redistribute wealth through preferenced funding, and ultimately prop up a bankrupt government through 7% interest rate loans. Why do you think programs that could once be finished in 1.5 years, paid for by hospital systems/practices/clinics, now take upwards of 3.5 years, with tuition costs that have went beyond the moon; it makes no sense, even more so when you account for the much discussed provider shortage. These dudes are lining their pockets fraudulently, and it is at the cost of students and subsequently patients.
Imagine if banks were doing what FASFA and the universities have been doing for the last 3 decades. People would be in the streets rioting. "Fraudulent business practices" would be the term of the day. Unfortunately, these institutions get a hard pass, mainly due to people like the OP below that feel there is a certain prestige associated with given schools.
I live in Western PA, I went to a 3.5 year program that cost me roughly 27k, I would be hard pressed to go to a "respected school" that would cost someone like me +$90k. I passed my boards the same as the OP did, I and I am told, that I do a pretty good job.
Ultimately, knowledge is being decentralized at a rapid pace, we would do well to recognize this and stay with the times. I can buy lectures, given by Harvard historians, for $10 on Amazon, hours of content! If Harvard is your thing, why can't we make all these lectures available and free for all? Share the wealth so to say? In the coming future, there will likely no longer be a monopoly on knowledge, as such the current cost of tuition should no longer be defended, and we should leave arrogance of "prestigious institutions" at the door.
Specializes in Mental health, substance abuse, geriatrics, PCU.
12 minutes ago, Zyprexa_Ho said:
This post made me laugh in a good way ???
It's like people are so focused on bricks and mortar and not on the actual content of the schooling. You don't get a better education just by sitting in a different building besides your home. There is no inherent reason why getting didactic content online is inferior than the exact same content online at home. And especially in the time of coivd, you'd think more people would see the value in online education.
At the end of the day, we all are going to have to go to clinicals. We all have to take the same certification exam. We all have to be approved by the BON. If they don't like that, then they need to be rallying around the ceritifcation bodies, not the schools.
I do think that some online schools are notoriously bad. Just do a Google search about the investigation into Walden. When I was doing my ASN I had a professor with a doctorate from Walden. I already knew then that that school was a joke.
However, if it's a state school... There's no reason to doubt it. Online, for-profit? Sure. But just because it's online, that doesn't make it automatically "easy."
That's the problem though, it's not the same education. Yes online education can be very effective and has its place, but the content delivery has to be up to par. There are people who say they finished their NP Program and only spoke to their "Professors" when they recieved feedback on their papers that focused primarily on grammar, structure, and APA formatting than the actual subject matter. When "didactic" material is reading the chapter and writer a paper, that's a joke.
And as I've said in almost every flipping thread that this topic comes in not all online schools are bad and not all b+m schools are good. And yes if the barriers to licensure are too few due to having an easy licensing exam then that needs to be addressed. BUT academia should have the ethical wherewithal to know they providing a substandard product.
12 hours ago, PsychNurse24 said:
I think you missed the point of discussion posts. Discussion posts Are similar to listening to a lecture. But discussion posts are better in many ways. For example, in a traditional classroom not every student will ask a question during class. Whereas with discussion posts every student has to comment, read many of the other students’ posts, and respond to at least two. Then the professor will answer your posts, frequently with another question, which takes several hours to go off and research and formulate a new answer.
When I was getting my RN, we all sat in the big classroom and listened to the instructor go over the book chapters. Because I had to drive an hour each way to class, I often found myself thinking I would’ve been much better off just staying home and re-reading the chapters again. In my experience, discussion posts required a lot more work and additional research and learning that in-class lectures did not provide. And I got to read through every other student’s discussion posts and get unique perspectives.
I will say that I did not like having to write so many papers. You spend so much time worrying about APA style, and that time could be spent learning more. But the papers did require you to go off and do more research. And I think like most people, when I researched, I would find another interesting subject related to the main ideas, and go off and learn about those.
I think school is what you make of it. Whether you’re in a traditional brick and mortar school or in Walden University, you can choose to put effort into each class, be curious, and excel.
I found your post very insightful. I'm glad the discussion threads have been an engaging and informative experience.
Thank you for your input. Unfortunately, it is a bit more complicated than that and my apologies for not including more background information.
These students are also employees and I (and everyone else) know they would like to work there upon graduation. The higher ups know they rotated with me. I do not want my impressions of their substandard advanced practice education to cause them problems for their current positions. I am involved in direct clinical education for a variety of mental health disciplines, and this cohort to date is the weakest of the the groups.
Upon further investigation, the curriculum has excessive requirements that take away from patient care and there are not enough required patient contact hours to develop proficiency. Technically based on what they were expected to do during their time with me would be acceptable by their school's standards at that stage of their educations, but completely unacceptable for graduation in the near future and subsequent advanced practice patient care.
I will check with the site coordinator on our end to see if/how I can relay these concerns to the institution. Thank you for your recommendation.
Thank you for posting this here. As you can see, many of us struggle with the lack of clinical experience in advanced degree programs.
And especially in the time of coivd, you'd think more people would see the value in online education.
At the end of the day, we all are going to have to go to clinicals. We all have to take the same certification exam. We all have to be approved by the BON. If they don't like that, then they need to be rallying around the ceritifcation bodies...
Higher education is going to move more towards virtual. They are losing money in the era of COvID, and will not tolerate it, or weather it much longer. There will surely be a push against this, for many reasons, some of which I highlighted in this thread. In another decade we can all look back on this thread and laugh; all the chicken littles with the sky is falling perspective, how could they not see what was actually happening? Honestly the continued viability of Medicare and Medicaid will pose far more of a threat to our livelihoods in this profession than any mythified oversupply or transition to new forms of learning.
Higher education is going to move more towards virtual. They are losing money in the era of COvID, and will not tolerate it, or weather it much longer. There will surely be a push against this, for many reasons, some of which I highlighted in this thread. In another decade we can all look back on this thread and laugh; all the chicken littles with the sky is falling perspective, how could they not see what was actually happening? Honestly the continued viability of Medicare and Medicaid will pose far more of a threat to our livelihoods in this profession than any mythified oversupply or transition to new forms of learning.
Really? You are going to make this a personal economic position? You're not going to save the tax payer's dime by diminishing the practitioner's education.
You are going to make this a personal economic position?
Not sure I completely understand what you mean here, “personal economic position”? But these institutions were known to be in trouble by 2030 (as if not already the case), multiple sources from varying political parties are easily available. This was and is an accepted fact, even before we started the print fest of 2020. This is really what concerns me, not sure if anyone is concerned about an oversupply of practitioners aside from the tinfoil wearing hats of this forum.
Not sure I completely understand what you mean here, “personal economic position”? But these institutions were known to be in trouble by 2030 (as if not already the case), multiple sources from varying political parties are easily available. This was and is an accepted fact, even before we started the print fest of 2020. This is really what concerns me, not sure if anyone is concerned about an oversupply of practitioners aside from the tinfoil wearing hats of this forum.
You did say that your income will be more affected by the viability of Medicare and Medicaid. I thought we were discussing the viability of our current educational model for NP's which has brought the standards to new lows.
You did say that your income will be more affected by the viability of Medicare and Medicaid. I thought we were discussing the viability of our current educational model for NP's which has brought the standards to new lows.
I was addressing the issue of our income because this seems to be a constant concern by many on this forum. My statement was meant to illustrate that if anything would concern me about my income, it would be with those programs. I also completely agree with the line of thinking that yes, the government would absolutely seek to save a dime, irrespective to quality care provided to the citizens.
In speaking to this thread though, can you show something to back up the following: 1) online schools are lowering income for NP’s, 1a) income for NPs is not keeping pace with inflation and/or exceeding it, 1b) there is a surplus of practitioners or soon will be and 2) standards are at new lows? Please spare me the venerated anecdotal evidence that many here hold in such high regard. My opinion is always ready to be changed, but do so with presenting facts please.
I was addressing the issue of our income because this seems to be a constant concern by many on this forum. My statement was meant to illustrate that if anything would concern me about my income, it would be with those programs. I also completely agree with the line of thinking that yes, the government would absolutely seek to save a dime, irrespective to quality care provided to the citizens.
In speaking to this thread though, can you show something to back up the following: 1) online schools are lowering income for NP’s, 1a) income for NPs is not keeping pace with inflation and/or exceeding it, 1b) there is a surplus of practitioners or soon will be and 2) standards are at new lows? Please spare me the venerated anecdotal evidence that many here hold in such high regard. My opinion is always ready to be changed, but do so with presenting facts please.
Thanks for the clarification but you must have me mixed up with someone else. I never commented about NP income being diluted by over saturation.
Thanks for the clarification but you must have me mixed up with someone else. I never commented about NP income being diluted by over saturation.
My mistake, seems to just be a recurring theme within threads on this specific topic.
Maybe address the following statement you made, “I thought we were discussing the viability of our current educational model for NP's which has brought the standards to new lows.” Specifically, “to new lows”.
There are a ton of threads on AN about the disappointing turn of nursing education including this one with a complaint from a mentor psychiatrist who felt that he had to come here for support. You admit that you don't know much about for-profit school. Just do a Google search and you will find that the graduation rates are low and the student loan debt is high in comparison to other educational formats. They students are paying for instruction from professors; not computers. If everyone could be taught everything virtually just drop the tuition fees by 75% and follow the passing rates for board exams. Student physicians get their clinical instruction from other physicians vetted by the university's staff. We nurses have to go out and scrounge up our own instructors for clinicals? We aren't getting what we are paying for. When a physicians shows up on a nursing forum to complain about having to supervise advanced practice nurses and some of them have no nursing experience, it's a symptom of a broken system.
For years I have thought that online lectures were not as rigorous as classroom lectures.Perhaps I wondered at the inability to ask questions in real time? Not relating to classmates (some of my best learning and most enjoyable in grad school was with my classmates) seems to be a drawback in fostering a learning community. I have taken online graduate courses that I hated, feeling a robot was teaching and grading my learnings and I think probably was.
Last year I signed up for an online course via the Victoria and Albert Museum in London. What a breath of fresh air with learning! The course was live but starting at 4:30 AM I chose to watch a recording for the first 2 talks. Then at 8:00 I experienced live sessions. We had 4 hours of coursework one day a week (with tea breaks and lunch breaks scheduled). We had the ability to chat with fellow participants from all over the world on a dedication channel. There was a lot of meaningful discussion and a camaraderie that I learned to love.
The lecturer was a 40 year curator at the V & A. Top notch as well as the guest speakers. We could ask questions and received knowledgable answers. If she needed to look something up, she was quick to post the info on a dedicated question thread. Her PPT images were crystal clear and diverse. BTW each week we received an outline with suggested readings and an list of the internet locations of all the illustrations/paintings/photographs used in the course.
Please excuse my ramblings but I have totally changed my opinion of online learning IF the lecturer is extremely knowledgeble, open to questions, adds anecdotes on their expert career......and is a great speaker. If you get more than a standard lecture.
Let me put it this way: the V & A museum is closed for Covid, but we had several virtual tours of the museum relating to what we were studying. Great images (not photos) , a visual of walking through to the exhibit related to what we were studying. Discussion along the way. OK we were not there but it was the second best thing.
Online education can be done but requires an excellent teacher with a thorough working knowledge of the subject able to answer questions on the fly, while providing additional resources for further study. How can a format be developed that will make you feel you are right there with the expert?
For years I have thought that online lectures were not as rigorous as classroom lectures.Perhaps I wondered at the inability to ask questions in real time? Not relating to classmates (some of my best learning and most enjoyable in grad school was with my classmates) seems to be a drawback in fostering a learning community. I have taken online graduate courses that I hated, feeling a robot was teaching and grading my learnings and I think probably was.
Last year I signed up for an online course via the Victoria and Albert Museum in London. What a breath of fresh air with learning! The course was live but starting at 4:30 AM I chose to watch a recording for the first 2 talks. Then at 8:00 I experienced live sessions. We had 4 hours of coursework one day a week (with tea breaks and lunch breaks scheduled). We had the ability to chat with fellow participants from all over the world on a dedication channel. There was a lot of meaningful discussion and a camaraderie that I learned to love.
The lecturer was a 40 year curator at the V & A. Top notch as well as the guest speakers. We could ask questions and received knowledgable answers. If she needed to look something up, she was quick to post the info on a dedicated question thread. Her PPT images were crystal clear and diverse. BTW each week we received an outline with suggested readings and an list of the internet locations of all the illustrations/paintings/photographs used in the course.
Please excuse my ramblings but I have totally changed my opinion of online learning IF the lecturer is extremely knowledgeble, open to questions, adds anecdotes on their expert career......and is a great speaker. If you get more than a standard lecture.
Let me put it this way: the V & A museum is closed for Covid, but we had several virtual tours of the museum relating to what we were studying. Great images (not photos) , a visual of walking through to the exhibit related to what we were studying. Discussion along the way. OK we were not there but it was the second best thing.
Online education can be done but requires an excellent teacher with a thorough working knowledge of the subject able to answer questions on the fly, while providing additional resources for further study. How can a format be developed that will make you feel you are right there with the expert?
Few people write off the value of online learning off hand. If the curriculum information is from a knowledge instructor as well as crafted thoughtfully and flexibly to cover broad range of learning styles, then it’s a really effective option. The issue is the low value high volume producers that give other great schools a bad name. They lower the bar and only do the bare minimum to meet their credentials. Meanwhile they get away with posting no statistics of graduation rates or board pass rates.
TheMoonisMyLantern, ADN, LPN, RN
923 Posts
That's the problem though, it's not the same education. Yes online education can be very effective and has its place, but the content delivery has to be up to par. There are people who say they finished their NP Program and only spoke to their "Professors" when they recieved feedback on their papers that focused primarily on grammar, structure, and APA formatting than the actual subject matter. When "didactic" material is reading the chapter and writer a paper, that's a joke.
And as I've said in almost every flipping thread that this topic comes in not all online schools are bad and not all b+m schools are good. And yes if the barriers to licensure are too few due to having an easy licensing exam then that needs to be addressed. BUT academia should have the ethical wherewithal to know they providing a substandard product.
I found your post very insightful. I'm glad the discussion threads have been an engaging and informative experience.