We Must Demolish Traditional Universities

[Guest1168644]

Can we address this line of thinking -"We must demolish diploma factories"? The hubris and the arrogance abounds. If we can take anything away from 2020 it is this, the traditional brick and mortar school needs rethought. It no longer serves a purpose, and is not what the future holds in terms of efficiency and sustainability. 

The original post below this one fails to recognize the actual problem our society faces, that being "traditional universities". These institutions no longer exist to produce a beneficial product, if this was the case we would not have thousands of people demanding loan forgiveness; if the product is sound, why would it need subsidized?

The real problem is simply this, universities are now centers to push one-sided ideologies, redistribute wealth through preferenced funding, and ultimately prop up a bankrupt government through 7% interest rate loans. Why do you think programs that could once be finished in 1.5 years, paid for by hospital systems/practices/clinics, now take upwards of 3.5 years, with tuition costs that have went beyond the moon; it makes no sense, even more so when you account for the much discussed provider shortage. These dudes are lining their pockets fraudulently, and it is at the cost of students and  subsequently patients.

Imagine if banks were doing what FASFA and the universities have been doing for the last 3 decades. People would be in the streets rioting. "Fraudulent business practices" would be the term of the day. Unfortunately, these institutions get a hard pass, mainly due to people like the OP below that feel there is a certain prestige associated with given schools.

I live in Western PA, I went to a 3.5 year program that cost me roughly 27k, I would be hard pressed to go to a "respected school" that would cost someone like me +$90k. I passed my boards the same as the OP did, I and I am told, that I do a pretty good job.

Ultimately, knowledge is being decentralized at a rapid pace, we would do well to recognize this and stay with the times. I can buy lectures, given by Harvard historians, for $10 on Amazon, hours of content! If Harvard is your thing, why can't we make all these lectures available and free for all? Share the wealth so to say? In the coming future, there will likely no longer be a monopoly on knowledge, as such the current cost of tuition should no longer be defended, and we should leave arrogance of "prestigious institutions" at the door.

[TheMoonisMyLantern, ADN, LPN, RN]

As was stated in the other thread and many other threads on this topic, online education isn't really the problem. It certainly has a place in higher education and even education in advanced practice. The problem is in content delivery, lack of rigor, few admission standards, and tuition price inflation. 

B/M schools are certainly guilty of tuition price gouging but so too are many online schools. Walden, Chamberlain, Phoenix, and others have quite expensive tuition for the product they're peddling. You mention that you can buy recorded lectures off of Amazon, many of these online schools don't even provide any kind of lecture recorded or live and the student is told to read a textbook, post in a discussion board, and write a paper. 

For profit online schools do nothing to further our profession, they are simply honey traps taking advantage of students.

I think online learning is excellent, I just think our standards and expectations need to be higher, and that's not a bad thing!

[FiremedicMike, RN, EMT-P]

Online learning can be done right.  Recorded lectures that you can complete at your own convenience.  Weekly assignments.  Weekly or biweekly synchronous meetings with the class and instructor.

I completed my bachelors degree through online programs offered by respected brick and mortar schools.  I've had excellent classes as described above, and I've also had classes which were basically "here's the textbook, there's 3 quizzes and 2 papers, see you in 15 weeks, thanks for the $1,000"..

I'm certain the quality classes are difficult on the instructors, possibly even more-so than a traditional class, which is probably why so many of them end up being the latter.

To the original point, I actually agree that the college bubble needs to burst.  Our kids are drilled that college is a MUST, no matter what.  I have a daughter accumulating student debt right now who has absolutely zero idea what she wants to do with her life.  I've told her repeatedly over the last several years that she doesn't need to go to college and waste money right now until she figures life out, but it is so engrained in her mind from her primary education that she just feels like she has no choice. 

[Guest1168644]

20 minutes ago, TheMoonisMyLantern said:

For profit online schools do nothing to further our profession, they are simply honey traps taking advantage of students.

I am not really familiar with the "for profit" schools. But I can only assume that they are no more predatory in their peddling than many of the B/M schools. 

Basic economics states that services exist to provide a product. If that product is inferior, unworthy, or simply put - hazardous, then it will not last. When we get into the practice of over regulating, we hamper innovation. 

10 minutes ago, FiremedicMike said:

Our kids are drilled that college is a MUST, no matter what. 

Mike Rowe has an absolutely amazing organization that was founded for this very point!

[TheMoonisMyLantern, ADN, LPN, RN]

17 minutes ago, Shamrock1145 said:

I am not really familiar with the "for profit" schools. But I can only assume that they are no more predatory in their peddling than many of the B/M schools. 

Basic economics states that services exist to provide a product. If that product is inferior, unworthy, or simply put - hazardous, then it will not last. When we get into the practice of over regulating, we hamper innovation. 

Mike Rowe has an absolutely amazing organization that was founded for this very point!

Over regulating certainly can hamper innovation but regulation is vital when a life sustaining service will be provided as a result of the education delivered. I would argue that the online for profit schools are more predatory simply due to the fact that their admission criteria are usually even less than B/M schools that are attempting to squeeze their students as well. 

That being said, there is a local B/M college here that charges 30,000 for their LPN program, and 50,000 for their ADN. They also have a BSN and MSN program, I don't know the cost of those, but I do know that their credits won't transfer to other colleges and universities. 

They advertise "guaranteed acceptance" which is very enticing to people who are desperate to further their education and to change their life circumstances. These schools are down right predatory!

[Guest1168644]

On 2/17/2021 at 6:49 PM, TheMoonisMyLantern said:

Over regulating certainly can hamper innovation but regulation is vital when a life sustaining service will be provided as a result of the education delivered. I would argue that the online for profit schools are more predatory simply due to the fact that their admission criteria are usually even less than B/M schools that are attempting to squeeze their students as well. 

That being said, there is a local B/M college here that charges 30,000 for their LPN program, and 50,000 for their ADN. They also have a BSN and MSN program, I don't know the cost of those, but I do know that their credits won't transfer to other colleges and universities. 

Two points to be made here. You are omitting certification as a requirement for licensure. Furthermore, do we have data that would actually show these schools are dangerous? If so, then thats an entirely different story and would go back to the basic laws of economics. Withstanding such evidence, the entire argument must be viewed as being rooted in a position of arrogance.

In speaking to predatory practices. A University in my area offers only a DNP for family practice, they completely did away with the MSN. The program would run someone $90,000, last time I looked. I paid1/3 of the price for my advanced degree. But I now have a certification, a license, a job, and am quite good at it. I am doing the exact same thing someone that spent $90k could possibly be doing. Now tell me, what do you think the result of decreasing access and choice in institutions would do to the price here? It certainly would not lead to less "predatory practices".

[Emergent, RN]

I agree,  higher education has become a corrupt,  agenda-driven bureaucracy. It's filled with lowest common denominator garbage and low standards. They've made most bachelor degrees useless in the marketplace, forcing students to keep coughing up big bucks for post-graduate degrees. 

[djmatte, ADN, MSN, RN, NP]

2 minutes ago, Shamrock1145 said:

Two points to be made here. You are omitting certification as a requirement for licensure. Furthermore, do we have data that would actually show these schools are dangerous? If so, then thats an entirely different story and would go back to the basic laws of economics. Withstanding such evidence, the entire argument must be viewed as being rooted in a position of arrogance.



"Evidence" doesn't exist for the same reason real evidence doesn't study the implication of direct to practice NPs vs value of actual nursing experience prior to NP school: nobody is willing to put the profession on the line for a public calling out of practices that could put our profession at risk.  We have noted concerns about NPs who actively precepted students from these schools where their preparedness for even a student role was questioned.  We see persistent anecdote by "colleagues" of other disciplines displayed across the internet who talk daily about the inept NP from a Walden or Chamberlain who asked a question a pre-med student would/should know the answer to.  Nobody will study it because it will severely damage the gains our profession has made.  

[djmatte, ADN, MSN, RN, NP]

2 minutes ago, djmatte said:

"Evidence" doesn't exist for the same reason real evidence doesn't study the implication of direct to practice NPs vs value of actual nursing experience prior to NP school: nobody is willing to put the profession on the line for a public calling out of practices that could put our profession at risk.  We have noted concerns about NPs who actively precepted students from these schools where their preparedness for even a student role was questioned.  We see persistent anecdote by "colleagues" of other disciplines displayed across the internet who talk daily about the inept NP from a Walden or Chamberlain who asked a question a pre-med student would/should know the answer to.  Nobody will study it because it will severely damage the gains our profession has made.  

And it isn't from a position of arrogance.  It's from a position of concern for our livelihood as opportunities disappear and also for the respect of our profession.

[Guest1168644]

1 minute ago, djmatte said:

...nobody is willing to put the profession on the line for a public calling out of practices that could put our profession at risk... We see persistent anecdote by "colleagues" of other disciplines displayed across the internet who talk daily about the inept NP...

Ethical concern here for sure, placing perception over safety. We practice evidence-based, we train as such also, or so I assumed.

[Guest1168644]

5 minutes ago, djmatte said:

And it isn't from a position of arrogance.  It's from a position of concern for our livelihood as opportunities disappear and also for the respect of our profession.

You are right, I over spoke and oversimplified here, but ultimately, from reading many of these posts, arrogance/man on the ivory town/hubris plays a factor for sure. Ultimately, this is a forum and prone to much nonsense.

[Guest1168644]

8 minutes ago, djmatte said:

It's from a position of concern for our livelihood as opportunities disappear and also for the respect of our profession.

And this is how prices ultimately become inflated.