"We don't hire male RNs" and other things you should never say to me

[labordude]

TL;DR - Recruiter told me they don't hire dudes. Firestorm ensues. I get a PRN job.

Recently I did an online "Talk with a Nurse Recruiter" session as I have moved to a new city and I'm looking for some PRN work. This was a fun conversation (organization name and recruiter name protected) as you can see below where I'm told that the hospital doesn't hire male RNs into women's services or NICU/SCN/Nursery.

Once I was done with this nice, but uninformed recruiter I sent off an e-mail AND snail mail copies to the SVP of the entire system as well as the president, CNO, and VP HR of the local facility. Oh boy did that set off some fun. Less than 24 hours later I had a call from a system level HR director telling me that she doesn't know what that lady was thinking and that certainly wasn't correct information. I played up how caught off guard I was by how blatantly she told me they won't hire male RNs (even if she thinks it, don't say it! especially in a recorded chat room, that's just not very smart). Also, it apparently only applies to RNs because they will consider male STs.

Long story short, ended up interviewing, shadowing, and getting a job offer because as it turns out I'm pretty awesome and the staff wanted me to join them. I may have also bribed them by offering to bake cookies, but that is totally beside the point!

[MunoRN, RN]

2 hours ago, NurseBlaq said:

Key word: "I"

You are one person and can NOT speak for anyone else nor "most" women. The topic isn't about whom YOU would want as a nurse so why are you so bothered?

Having said that, I am not going back and forth with you on YOUR OPINION. Everyone has one, but that isn't the point. Regardless of your opinion, or anyone else' including mine, discrimination in hiring practices based on sex is illegal, full stop. There is no male/female only aspect of providing nursing, or any healthcare for that matter, to any patient. The fact some of y'all are going super hard to validate discrimination makes me wonder how y'all treat patients or their family. There is no justification for discriminatory hiring practices.

To clarify, it's not illegal to hire based on gender, it's illegal to discriminate based on gender which means to hire based on gender when there is no business related reason to do so.

If it can be proven that there is no significant preference for female nurses by laboring moms then hiring only females would be discrimination. At least in my area and others where I've worked this isn't the case; the number of women in labor who would freely accept a male nurse is fairly small, so hiring only or at least predominantly female nurses is based on the preferences of their patients, which is therefore not discrimination.

We effectively measure this where I work now, what to do with male nursing students in their OB rotation is a constant conundrum, as a result we track the number of laboring moms who accept a male nurse when asked and it's less than 1 in 5. This is far from a conservative community, even in the most open minded a preference for a female in a uniquely female experience shouldn't be surprising.

[NurseBlaq]

2 hours ago, MunoRN said:

To clarify, it's not illegal to hire based on gender, it's illegal to discriminate based on gender which means to hire based on gender when there is no business related reason to do so.

If it can be proven that there is no significant preference for female nurses by laboring moms then hiring only females would be discrimination. At least in my area and others where I've worked this isn't the case; the number of women in labor who would freely accept a male nurse is fairly small, so hiring only or at least predominantly female nurses is based on the preferences of their patients, which is therefore not discrimination.

We effectively measure this where I work now, what to do with male nursing students in their OB rotation is a constant conundrum, as a result we track the number of laboring moms who accept a male nurse when asked and it's less than 1 in 5. This is far from a conservative community, even in the most open minded a preference for a female in a uniquely female experience shouldn't be surprising.

It is completely illegal to NOT hire someone based solely on their gender. That is a form of discrimination. Secondly, your whole premise of explaining female/male nurses in OB to me is a moot point because you're speaking of what's happening in your area, not nationwide. There are many of us nurses and mothers who don't care on both sides of the aisle and know many who feel the same way so that's neither here nor there. I've already addressed this. No one, literally NO ONE, is arguing preference, we're discussing not hiring men in OB simply because they're men. I swear some of y'all are fake disputing that fact just to throw out y'all own preference. If that's your preference, fine, but it is not legal to discriminate based on race, sex, age, religion, etc. There are several laws (local, state, federal) to support this. Why is that up for debate?

[klone, MSN, RN]

Again, could you imagine if residency programs forbade male MDs from going into OB/Gyn residencies?

[NurseBlaq]

Just now, klone said:

Again, could you imagine if residency programs forbade male MDs from going into OB/Gyn residencies?

They would never! It's only nursing where everything and everybody has a problem with any and everybody. It's crazy!

[MunoRN, RN]

3 minutes ago, klone said:

Again, could you imagine if residency programs forbade male MDs from going into OB/Gyn residencies?

I think if they played comparable roles in the process, then that comparison would be relevant.

[NurseBlaq]

3 hours ago, SilverNova said:

"You are one person and can NOT speak for anyone else nor "most" women. The topic isn't about whom YOU would want as a nurse so why are you so bothered?"

While you are correct that not ALL women have a preference. I believe that it's widely accepted knowledge, that MOST women feel uncomfortable with being nude for extended amounts of time in front of men. This is exactly why women and men have different changing rooms. Whether it's cultural, social conditioning, or biological, modesty is important to women, and being complete naked in front of men can be at the very least embarrassing. Being supported by people that have the same parts as you is comforting for many women.

"discrimination in hiring practices based on sex is illegal, full stop."

I agree, but there is a CLEAR preference for female nurses in this particular population of patients. This population is almost 100% female, with the exception of trans-men. I believe that only in very select areas, such as: a women's homeless shelter, female domestic violence center, or L&D units, employers should be able to accommodate and consider the needs of that specific patient population. What IRKS me about Male Nurses demanding employment in L&D units, while threatening lawsuits, is that these Male Nurses are insisting that female modesty is IRRELEVANT. They believe that discriminating against males, trumps female patient's preferences and comfort.

"There is no male/female only aspect of providing nursing, or any healthcare for that matter, to any patient."

I think many would disagree. Whenever I visit a Gynecologist, I am asked if I would prefer a female. I believe that this is strong evidence that there is a clear preference within the female patient population for a female provider, when it comes to intimate medical examinations. I am pretty positive that the VAST majority of woman that walk into a L&D unit do not want a male nurse. Many women may feel uncomfortable voicing their preference, for the fear of being call a bigot.

"There is no justification for discriminatory hiring practices."

I believe there should be some exceptions, when it comes to female intimate care, to consider the needs of population being cared for. There are reasons that hospitals are resistant to hire more male L&D nurses, and why these male nurses are resorting to lawsuits, or bullying with the BON, in order to get what they want. Those reasons are patient preference. Most hospitals have to compete with other hospitals for clients. They want to provide the best birthing experience possible so clients come back and recommend to others. Male L&D nurses decrease client satisfaction, and lead to unhappy birth experiences. Hospitals don't want this, so it's clear there is a mild resistance to hire more men. Again Male Nurses don't seem to care about this, and demand to be in a area where frankly they are unneeded and unwanted. There are dozens of other areas of nursing where male nurses are desperately needed and wanted.

The fact some of y'all are going super hard to validate discrimination makes me wonder how y'all treat patients or their family. There is no justification for discriminatory hiring practices.

I treat my patients and their families with compassion, kindness, and dignity at all times. I believe my comforting and emphatic nature, is my strongest quality as a nurse. I may have a few controversial opinions, but I keep them private, and conduct myself in a profession manner. Even though my comments on this site are very impersonal, in real life I'm a very happy go lucky and friendly person.

So you did these extensive studies to validate what "MOST" women want and how they feel when? Where/when was it published?

[Mommyandcareerchangertobe]

2 minutes ago, NurseBlaq said:

So you did these extensive studies to validate what "MOST" women want and how they feel when? Where/when was it published?

Why are you so reluctant to believe that most women, if given the choice, prefer a female labor nurse? Competence is assumed, so the argument that they want a “good” nurse regardless of sex is irrelevant. This is a uniquely female process - most laboring women are not sick either, this is a natural process and they are there for safety reasons and sometimes pain relief. There is a reason men are disappearing from obgyn speciality. In the old days, women had no choices because all doctors were men. Now women have choices and they are actively choosing women in many cases resulting in a lopsided number of women to men younger OBs. Acting like we are making this up is ridiculous.

[NurseBlaq]

28 minutes ago, Mommyandcareerchangertobe said:

Why are you so reluctant to believe that most women, if given the choice, prefer a female labor nurse? Competence is assumed, so the argument that they want a “good” nurse regardless of sex is irrelevant. This is a uniquely female process - most laboring women are not sick either, this is a natural process and they are there for safety reasons and sometimes pain relief. There is a reason men are disappearing from obgyn speciality. In the old days, women had no choices because all doctors were men. Now women have choices and they are actively choosing women in many cases resulting in a lopsided number of women to men younger OBs. Acting like we are making this up is ridiculous.

This faux victim thing you have going is hilarious! Let me explain this in simple terms since you lack comprehension skills.

1. No one is arguing women's choice, NO ONE. The topic is hiring men on OB units or any aspect of nursing.

2. It is discriminatory to NOT hire men simply because they're men.

3. People are entitled to preferences, again no one is arguing that, but your preference is NOT indicative of what "MOST" women want, it's simply YOUR own preference. You can't speak for most women, especially without any studies or solid facts to back it up.

4. The fact you keep trying to shove your own preference on others is ridiculous.

5. I'm a woman, I know why the hell women go to OB units. Just for extras, I also have children and I had male OBs and male nurses along the way. So I also have experience. You and women who don't want male nurses/OB docs should know OB and delivering babies isn't exclusive to y'all.

6. The topic of this thread is OP was discriminated against because he's male, not because of what the women on the unit wanted, not because he wasn't capable, not because he lacked experience, etc. Simply because he was male. If you didn't know, that's the epitome of discrimination. Prime example. What part of that keeps passing you by?

7. Accept the fact there are male nurses, in all facets of nursing, just like there are male docs, in all facets of medicine.

Now stop trying to hijack the thread with your whining about men in labor and delivery as if you're the only woman with a uterus and you represent all women. We haven't voted you the voice of our uteri. Constantly trying to chop and screw everyone's words and remixing the facts won't change that.

So again, show some stats on what MOST women want or move around. Why are you so bothered? He's not your nurse and no one is taking away your preference.

[Mommyandcareerchangertobe]

1 minute ago, NurseBlaq said:

This faux victim thing you have going is hilarious! Let me explain this in simple terms since you lack comprehension skills.

1. No one is arguing women's choice, NO ONE. The topic is hiring men on OB units or any aspect of nursing.

2. It is discriminatory to NOT hire men simply because they're men.

3. People are entitled to preferences, again no one is arguing that, but your preference is NOT indicative of what "MOST" women want, it's simply YOUR own preference. You can't speak for most women, especially without any studies or solid facts to back it up.

4. The fact you keep trying to shove your own preference on others is ridiculous.

5. I'm a woman, I know why the hell women go to OB units. Just for extras, I also have children and I had male OBs and male nurses along the way. So I also have experience. You and women who don't want male nurses/OB docs should know OB and delivering babies isn't exclusive to y'all.

6. The topic of this thread is OP was discriminated against because he's male, not because of what the women on the unit wanted, not because he wasn't capable, not because he lacked experience, etc. Simply because he was male. If you didn't know, that's the epitome of discrimination. Prime example. What part of that keeps passing you by?

7. Accept the fact there are male nurses, in all facets of nursing, just like there are male docs, in all facets of medicine.

Now stop trying to hijack the thread with your whining about men in labor and delivery as if you're the only woman with a uterus and you represent all women. We haven't voted you the voice of our uteri. Constantly trying to chop and screw everyone's words and remixing the facts won't change that.

So again, show some stats on what MOST women want or move around. Why are you so bothered? He's not your nurse and no one is taking away your preference.

Why so aggressive? I’m telling you the lopsided obgyn female to male ratio in recent years is proof that there is indeed a strong preference for women. You keep ignoring this. That’s pretty clear data. If there was a huge demand for male obgyns there would be more new grad residents. Period.

[NurseBlaq]

Just now, Mommyandcareerchangertobe said:

Why so aggressive? I’m telling you the lopsided obgyn female to male ratio in recent years is proof that there is indeed a strong preference for women. You keep ignoring this. That’s pretty clear data. If there was a huge demand for male obgyns there would be more new grad residents. Period.

Aggressive? I spoke facts. You keep ignoring them. you claim there's data and many of us have asked you to produce it. Each time you're asked you go down another rabbit hole but never produce this data or a link to it. You also keep skipping the subject at the root of this thread with your own personal biases that again, you have produced no supporting data which you claim exists.

What you won't do, is label me as aggressive because I'm not going along with your nonsense and asking valid questions.

Produce this data you claim exists or move along. Don't quote me anymore unless you have a link with valid info. Otherwise, you're just trying to be right for the sake of arguing to be right and I don't have time to play those games. Plus, it's deterring the thread. Go make your own thread about it, I promise I won't comment on it.

[Mommyandcareerchangertobe]

10 minutes ago, NurseBlaq said:

Aggressive? I spoke facts. You keep ignoring them. you claim there's data and many of us have asked you to produce it. Each time you're asked you go down another rabbit hole but never produce this data or a link to it. You also keep skipping the subject at the root of this thread with your own personal biases that again, you have produced no supporting data which you claim exists.

What you won't do, is label me as aggressive because I'm not going along with your nonsense and asking valid questions.

Produce this data you claim exists or move along. Don't quote me anymore unless you have a link with valid info. Otherwise, you're just trying to be right for the sake of arguing to be right and I don't have time to play those games. Plus, it's deterring the thread. Go make your own thread about it, I promise I won't comment on it.

This isn’t a study but it pretty much sums up what I’ve been saying and actually quotes some numbers. It says only 8 percent of women prefer men and 40ish percent half no preference. That means half prefer women. Half is not insignificant Again I didn’t ever say men should be flat out banned from obgyn or l and d, but it’s pretty obvious that the field is reacting to a strong preference for females among many (not all) women.

https://www.latimes.com/health/la-me-male-gynos-20180307-htmlstory.html

[Mommyandcareerchangertobe]

11 minutes ago, NurseBlaq said:

Aggressive? I spoke facts. You keep ignoring them. you claim there's data and many of us have asked you to produce it. Each time you're asked you go down another rabbit hole but never produce this data or a link to it. You also keep skipping the subject at the root of this thread with your own personal biases that again, you have produced no supporting data which you claim exists.

What you won't do, is label me as aggressive because I'm not going along with your nonsense and asking valid questions.

Produce this data you claim exists or move along. Don't quote me anymore unless you have a link with valid info. Otherwise, you're just trying to be right for the sake of arguing to be right and I don't have time to play those games. Plus, it's deterring the thread. Go make your own thread about it, I promise I won't comment on it.

I did reply with a link but it’s being moderated for some reason.