Vaccination Mandating

toomuchbaloney · Sep 21, 2021

36 minutes ago, AreYouReallySure said:

This thread is called "Vaccination Mandating"
"No one is forced to vaccinate, everyone gets to choose. "
Mandated vaccination of any person in a community is forcing them to choose in this example and thread, healthcare workers. Refusing results in what? No work = financial blackmail. Vaccinate or else reprisals occur.

You characterize it as blackmail or a threat while others might characterize it differently. Nevertheless, a vaccine mandate is not unusual or unexpected in healthcare employment and certainly isn't surprising when the VPD in question is currently at pandemic status. The employees get to choose whether or not to vaccinate...now that choice for some carries additional potential consequences beyond the possibility of long haul or severe illness or death. Choices have consequences. Sometimes consequences are imposed by society.

42 minutes ago, AreYouReallySure said:

*

You appear very over sensitive Baloney,
The whole paragraph above was a question directed to clinicians looking after deceased people. Nowhere is any "claims" being made. I require further information and thus asking the question to those fellow workers of ours who are dealing with the deceased are best for answering my question.
Everyone here is looking at your words and also of mine and can see clearly there has been no claims made by me in your quoted paragraph

Your question and requirements as to who can answer are suspect. Why are you asking about data rather than seeking out the data from credible sources? Your opinions about covid in the USA seen to have been formed without review of the data or evidence given that you are just now asking for others to provide it to you.

Yes, everyone here can read the words here and discern for themselves your intentions. What would you say your intentions are in this thread? Is it to push against American vaccine mandates from your place in Australia?

MunoRN, RN · Sep 21, 2021

7 hours ago, hherrn said:

DOH!.
My bad. Can't edit it.

No hard feelings, the quoting function can get a bit wonky.

toomuchbaloney · Sep 21, 2021

4 minutes ago, MunoRN said:

No hard feelings, the quoting function can get a bit wonky.

Especially in the smart phone app.

macawake, MSN · Sep 21, 2021

5 hours ago, AreYouReallySure said:

Does anyone want me to show the websites and the searches I did on them? & you can go see for your self?

Yes of course we want to see the sources which you base the claims in your post on. You say you specialize in research so that shouldn’t really come as a surprise to you. We can easily find the Covid mortality rates for various countries so you don’t have to link those, but your UK numbers needs further details and context.

5 hours ago, AreYouReallySure said:

I have a friend in UK who verified a government website I went to that says more than 93% of people tested already have the antibodies for covid, vaccinated or unvaccinated. 65% fully vaccinated population over there according to the website. Wow right, so that means a minimum of nearly 30% have natural immunity. Is my math correct? So why vaccinate those 30%?

I just checked and it seems that ~71% of the total UK population have received at least one Covid vaccine dose, and most of those have also received their second dose. This percentage is of the total population, not the population that are eligible to be vaccinated. I haven’t checked recently if the UK are offering the vaccine to people 16 years and older or 12 years and older? Anyway, the percentage of those vaccinated out of the total eligible population is higher than 71%. I don’t know exactly how much higher since I don’t know the percentage of total population who are younger than 16 or 12, whichever applies. But I’m guesstimating that over 82% of the UK eligible population have gotten at least a first dose.

When you say that 93% of the tested individuals were found to have antibodies, it’s important to know 93% of what? Who exactly and how many did they test? That’s why we need a source for the numbers you posted.

You ask why we should vaccinate people who have previously been infected with the SARS-CoV-2 virus? Neither the vaccines nor an infection are likely to impart lifelong immunity. Those of us who are vaccinated will likely need a booster/s in the future. What’s the plan for the previously infected as immunity likely wanes over time? We know that people can get infected more than once. So is that the plan, get a second infection? Even if we take the benefits of a high vaccine uptake to society as a whole out of the equation and look only on an individual level, it’s safer for people to get vaccinated rather than getting infected. Sure if I had two similar individuals, one who’s never had a Covid-19 infection and one who had Covid five months ago, and I only had one vaccine dose to give at that time, I would prioritize the naive person. But as soon as more doses arrived I would hope that the other person also got vaccinated.

5 hours ago, AreYouReallySure said:

On a statistical website that has all sorts of stuff on it can compare all the countries official data.
In Zimbabwe about 310 deaths per 100,000 people in the population.
In USA about 2020 deaths per 100,000 people in the population.

In UK about 2009 deaths per 100,000 people in the population.

This means a 3rd world country successfully treats covid better than the USA or the UK because, at those statistics, you are more than 6 x more likely to die from covid than a person in Zimbabwe.

That is an embarrassment to first world medicine practices.

I was as shocked as you are right now -

I’m not at all shocked.

The most recent mortality numbers for the US, the UK and Zimbabwe I’ve found are approximately 206 deaths per 100,000 for the U.S., 203 per 100,000 for the UK and 31 per 100,000 for Zimbabwe.

I don’t find that very strange and you certainly shouldn’t interpret that as meaning that ”first world medicine” isn’t working.

I’ve been following this pandemic and how it’s moved and ebbed and flowed across the globe. Take Europe for example, Eastern Europe had very few cases compared to the Western parts during the first wave in 2020. Since then due to a very big number of cases during the second and third waves, six of the top ten countries in the world with highest number of deaths per 100,000, are Eastern European.

Very few countries on the African continent have compulsory systems to register deaths. As far as I could find, Zimbabwe isn’t one of them. Almost all European countries have CRVS systems (Civil Registration and Vital Statistics Systems). Two countries in Africa who actually do track and record deaths and the cause are South Africa and Tunisia. Both have Covid mortality rates on par with the UK and the U.S. (Most recent numbers I found are approximately 147/100,000 for South Africa and 210/100,000 for Tunisia. (The numbers in your post are off by a decimal. It’s ~2,000 per million or ~200 per 100,000. 2,020 per 100,000 like you wrote would be 2% and would mean that one out of every 50 Americans had died of Covid so far. It’s one out of every 500).

Looking at how cases have spread across the African continent in those countries that record death and cases reasonably accurately, it seems that they, just like Eastern Europe, didn’t have as high a peak during the initial phase of the pandemic, but have during later waves been battling very big outbreaks, primarily in 2021. It’s hard to evaluate the effects of the pandemic when countries don’t have a system in place to properly record deaths. You can’t even calculate excess deaths.

I don’t know what the real mortality numbers in Zimbabwe are, but if I were to guess, it’s probably higher than the official figure.

There is one factor that we know puts you at risk of a serious Covid outcome/death and that’s age. The most recent numbers for life expectancy in the UK I found is 81 years, in the U.S. it’s 78 or 79 years and Zimbabwe is around 61 years. That’s a twenty year lower life expectancy than the UK, and we should consider the impact that might have.

macawake, MSN · Sep 21, 2021

On 9/20/2021 at 5:13 AM, pclaybrooke said:

I really wish we had time to discuss health policy because the population strategy should be educating the greater population. There are multiple ways we can achieve the goal of helping as many as possible not die without buying into the gimmicks that the majority who contract Covid have died, because that statistically is not true.

On 9/20/2021 at 2:56 PM, hherrn said:

Nobody ever said that. You can’t just make something up and then argue with it. Well, I suppose you can, but you shouldn’t. Stop that.

Hear, hear!

It’s amazing the amount of falsehoods and lies that are being spread here. I think this is a strategy that some posters use to try to make others spend time and energy on arguing about a claim that they never even made in the first place. It’s an attempt to make posters who support vaccines, look unreasonable and hysterical. Which we would have been if we’ve actually said that the SARS-CoV-2 virus kills everyone it infects.

Pclay, the CFR in my country is currently 1.29%. The IFR is lower. So no not everyone, or close to everyone, or even a large part of people with a Covid infection dies. Never thought they did. Never said they do.

The End.

RETNAVYTHENMEDIC2RN, ADN, RN, EMT-P · Sep 21, 2021

On 9/17/2021 at 6:28 PM, pclaybrooke said:

In the United States of America, it feels very communistic to have anything mandated. Things can be highly recommended, but to just say things like:

"All for it. The simple fact that mandates are needed speaks volumes to the sheer stupidity of those can get vaccinated but choose not to". - This response shows lack of intelligence to review the science from both sides of the spectrum. C'mon medical community, we're better than this. Don't just follow the liberal media machine that tout's fear on a daily basis, but never seems to put success stories from the vaccinated and unvaccinated. I have majority of my unvaccinated patients that have done very well after getting covid and I have also had a few both vaccinated and unvaccinated patient's that had to go to the hospital. So it is a huge disservice to the medical community as a whole to take sides when we have forever been able to "agree to disagree" and keep making decisions based on scientific evidence which is constantly being updated. Some really good reports recently out of Israel and England.

Sorry, the days of "agree to disagree" or debating science and evidence from sources contrary to ones entrenched opinion are fading quickly. Thank you colleges and universities that squelch debate and opposing opinions/view points because it "offends" someone for helping make this an acceptable practice.

macawake, MSN · Sep 21, 2021

5 minutes ago, RJMDilts said:

Sorry, the days of "agree to disagree" or debating science and evidence from sources contrary to ones entrenched opinion are fading quickly.

That is totally incorrect.

No one who believes in the scientific method has ”entrenched opinions”. Our minds are open and as science evolves and new facts come to light, we change our understanding. It’s not about having an opinion, and it’s the polar opposite to entrenched. It’s dynamic and constantly evolving.

But one thing we won’t do, is to afford equal weight and respect to junk science and unsupported claims.

RETNAVYTHENMEDIC2RN, ADN, RN, EMT-P · Sep 21, 2021

5 hours ago, AreYouReallySure said:

Hi there.
Very balanced. I would like to know more please.
I have a friend in UK who verified a government website I went to that says more than 93% of people tested already have the antibodies for covid, vaccinated or unvaccinated. 65% fully vaccinated population over there according to the website. Wow right, so that means a minimum of nearly 30% have natural immunity. Is my math correct? So why vaccinate those 30%?

On a statistical website that has all sorts of stuff on it can compare all the countries official data.
In Zimbabwe about 310 deaths per 100,000 people in the population.
In USA about 2020 deaths per 100,000 people in the population.

In UK about 2009 deaths per 100,000 people in the population.

This means a 3rd world country successfully treats covid better than the USA or the UK because, at those statistics, you are more than 6 x more likely to die from covid than a person in Zimbabwe.

That is an embarrassment to first world medicine practices.

Does anyone want me to show the websites and the searches I did on them? & you can go see for your self?
I was as shocked as you are right now - as I am in Australia & we are copying you guys....and everyone; vaccinated or not is going to catch covid, no exceptions.

G'day Mate! Wow, I would think in Australia COVID would not be such a big deal, what with those big spiders and poisonous snakes! What's a little virus with such a high survival rate compared to those things? Keep smiling down there! I'll keep smiling up here. Dad sure loved Sidney in 68' when his ship visited there. He's probably have a cow seeing how things are now. For all you serious readers on here of course this is tongue in cheek, so lighten up.

RETNAVYTHENMEDIC2RN, ADN, RN, EMT-P · Sep 21, 2021

7 minutes ago, macawake said:

That is totally incorrect.

No one who believes in the scientific method has ”entrenched opinions”. Our minds are open and as science evolves and new facts come to light, we change our understanding. It’s not about having an opinion, and it’s the polar opposite to entrenched. It’s dynamic and constantly evolving.

But one thing we won’t do, is to afford equal weight and respect to junk science and unsupported claims.

And is that your opinion or fact?

toomuchbaloney · Sep 21, 2021

7 minutes ago, RJMDilts said:

What's a little virus with such a high survival rate compared to those things? Keep smiling down there!

Perhaps you haven't noticed that covid infection causes a range of symptoms and health complaints that are requiring an unsustainable level of care and support from our poorly prepared, profit and payment focused health system. We certainly have managed to reduce the initial death rates measurably, but that treatment that saves lives doesn't reduce hospitalizations or rate of infection. That's where unified attention to social mitigation and vaccination comes in.

5 minutes ago, RJMDilts said:

And is that your opinion or fact?

I read it as factually based opinion. Did you disagree with some portion of the comment?

RETNAVYTHENMEDIC2RN, ADN, RN, EMT-P · Sep 21, 2021

19 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

Perhaps you haven't noticed that covid infection causes a range of symptoms and health complaints that are requiring an unsustainable level of care and support from our poorly prepared, profit and payment focused health system. We certainly have managed to reduce the initial death rates measurably, but that treatment that saves lives doesn't reduce hospitalizations or rate of infection. That's where unified attention to social mitigation and vaccination comes in.

I read it as factually based opinion. Did you disagree with some portion of the comment?

Oh, I didn't notice any of those sx/complaints as I hooked up their O2, started their IV's and administered their anti-biotics, Remdesivir, decadron etc., nurse condescension. Oh, did you forget to tell the class about the rest of my posting? Of course you did. So for total transparency, which our friend nurse condescension (whom I shall refer to as RNC in the future) often lacks: Here is my post to a colleague down under whom RNC apparently has some disdain for as well as myself.

G'day Mate! Wow, I would think in Australia COVID would not be such a big deal, what with those big spiders and poisonous snakes! What's a little virus with such a high survival rate compared to those things? Keep smiling down there! I'll keep smiling up here. Dad sure loved Sidney in 68' when his ship visited there. He's probably have a cow seeing how things are now. For all you serious readers on here of course this is tongue in cheek, so lighten up.

So Levity/Humor is not something some of the folks on the blog can relate to. Even in serious times, a little humor shines thru. Deal with it. ☮️Out RNC. Don't be such a dour soul.

toomuchbaloney · Sep 21, 2021

2 minutes ago, RJMDilts said:

Oh, I didn't notice any of those sx/complaints as I hooked up their O2, started their IV's and administered their anti-biotics, Remdesivir, decadron etc., nurse condescension. Oh, did you forget to tell the class about the rest of my posting? Of course you did. So for total transparency, which our friend nurse condescension (whom I shall refer to as RNC in the future) often lacks: Here is my post to a colleague down under whom RNC apparently has some disdain for as well as myself.

G'day Mate! Wow, I would think in Australia COVID would not be such a big deal, what with those big spiders and poisonous snakes! What's a little virus with such a high survival rate compared to those things? Keep smiling down there! I'll keep smiling up here. Dad sure loved Sidney in 68' when his ship visited there. He's probably have a cow seeing how things are now. For all you serious readers on here of course this is tongue in cheek, so lighten up.

So Levity/Humor is not something some of the folks on the blog can relate to. Even in serious times, a little humor shines thru. Deal with it. ☮️Out RNC. Don't be such a dour soul.

Yeah. Tone is a big concern for you. I got that message in another comment.