Using Your Nursing Credentials to Validate Anti-Vaxxer Theories

allnurses Guide · Sep 13, 2021

4 minutes ago, Jeckrn1 said:

Yes there is but if people did not question the science of the day most would still believe the earth is flat.

Science didn’t say the Earth was flat. People believed it was till science proved it wasn’t.

Hannahbanana, BSN, MSN · Sep 13, 2021

There is historical record that Arab scholars calculated the diameter of the earth loooong before Europeans. That did get found out, LOL. Of course sailing vessels never did fall off the edge of the earth after going out of sight of land, so data were always coming in.

jive turkey · Sep 13, 2021

1 hour ago, BostonFNP said:

The vaccines are too new (65%)

The FDA hasn’t fully approved the vaccines yet (47%)

I’m concerned about short-term side effects (48%)

I’m concerned about long-term side effects (71%)

Don’t trust any vaccines (29%)

Don’t trust the government (54%)

Don’t trust drug companies (50%)

There is no legitimate scientific evidence to support any of those rationales. Let alone the fact I'd really need someone to explain to me how one can simultaneously use the fact they distrust government and lack of FDA approval as an excuses.

I don't think anyone is avoiding the vaccine to purposely infect people (I do think a fair amount might be doing to antagonize the opposite political party) but their choice has consequences and infecting other is one (I'm speaking here of people who are not being vaccinated for reasons other than medical contraindication). It may not be their intention, but the effect is that they are putting others in danger. They might not like getting treated like that but they may deserve it.

There's a variety of scientific evidence to consider, none of which conclusively supports removing the choice from every person entirely (contraindications aside).

It must be considered we are dealing with human beings here not laboratory specimens or computer programs where choices are binary.

Every choice we make in life isn't based on someone's scientific justification. Imagine being told, your spouse cheated on you but you have no scientific justification to not trust them. Not enough planes crash to justify you being afraid to fly. The government has lied about many things. Drug companies have been sued for withholding information and releasing a product anyway.

Imagine how many doctors would have rolled their eyes at someone being afraid to take Zantac.....

This is why we can't be entirely dismissive when someone says they don't trust the drug companies, and don't trust the government. Patronizing them over their fears makes them more hesitant.

I support your position that logically, there is supporting evidence to encourage vaccination. I disagree that we can discount people's feelings as being unjustified.

1 hour ago, BostonFNP said:

The government didn't make the vaccines. The government isn't doing the trials or the studies. This is a worldwide problem with a worldwide solution in vaccinations. Unless all the 195 countries have secretly banded together with the hundreds of companies in the private sector to immunize people for the purpose of...

They are "legitimate" reasons for someone who googles "what are reasons I shouldn't get vaccinated".

The government is creating the mandates. That's why perceptions of the government get factored in.

Helen Crump · Sep 13, 2021

9 hours ago, Queen Tiye said:

My hope is that as nurses, advocates in the caring profession, that we can enter into discord about sensitive topics without hostility. I am seeing a mob mentality that is void of respect for others with differing opinions.

The problem is that this is not just a difference of opinion, and it should not be framed as such. This is about segments of the population not just ignoring established science but making up "science" to justify their points of view and then endangering the rest of us. I am not obligated to respect any difference of opinion that risks my life and that of my loved ones.

allnurses Guide · Sep 14, 2021

31 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

Not enough planes crash to justify you being afraid to fly.

Is this a problem with the planes' safety or the individual's emotional response to the idea of flying? Would the individual be any less anxious if planes never crashed? What do most people with anxiety about flying do when they need to travel somewhere?

This is a perfect example to highlight that it really is about emotion with most of the vaccine hesitant: it is not about how safe and effective/efficient planes are compared with the alternative (risk of death driving is 1 in 114 and risk of death in flying is 1 in 9,884) or from having a personal near-death experience flying or from not trusting the government/FAA or from not trusting the plane manufacturers. Those might be excuses but the anxiety and emotion are the real culprit.

54 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

The government is creating the mandates. That's why perceptions of the government get factored in.

Would you be surprised to learn that people answered that same survey question about the same way well before any government mandates?

jive turkey · Sep 14, 2021

13 minutes ago, BostonFNP said:

1.Is this a problem with the planes' safety or the individual's emotional response to the idea of flying? Would the individual be any less anxious if planes never crashed? What do most people with anxiety about flying do when they need to travel somewhere?

This is a perfect example to highlight that it really is about emotion with most of the vaccine hesitant: it is not about how safe and effective/efficient planes are compared with the alternative (risk of death driving is 1 in 114 and risk of death in flying is 1 in 9,884) or from having a personal near-death experience flying or from not trusting the government/FAA or from not trusting the plane manufacturers. Those might be excuses but the anxiety and emotion are the real culprit.

2.Would you be surprised to learn that people answered that same survey question about the same way well before any government mandates?

Planes do crash. It wouldn't be accurate to say someone's fear of flying is unjustified considering crashing is possible even though they're rare.

Statistically, the plane is the vaccine and the car is no vaccination without previous infection. On paper one appears safer but control is surrendered.

2. Even before mandates, the government was a primary source of information and direction. They can not be removed from the equation.

When you call it "excuses" that accuses people of being insincere. I.e. calling in sick as an excuse to go to a concert.

-What is the challenge understanding people have genuine concerns and there are situations where those concerns are supported by facts and history?

-A dismissive attitude of people's fears in this regard, works AGAINST vaccination.

What's more important? Being correct or increasing vaccinations?

Hannahbanana, BSN, MSN · Sep 14, 2021

1 hour ago, BostonFNP said:

Would you be surprised to learn that people answered that same survey question about the same way well before any government mandates?

Citation, please.
How long before? Right after the polio epidemic was resolved? When measles and mumps no longer rendered babies and children deaf or blind? When tetorifice didn’t mean a horrible death? When people bitten by rabid dogs didn’t have to have the village blacksmith cauterize the wound with red-hot iron and hope it killed the virus before it got into the CSF? Do tell.

I’ll bet it was well before everything, everything, everything got distorted by the lens that says every reporter, scientist, and researcher is upside facto untrustworthy. And who benefits?

Jeckrn1, ADN, BSN · Sep 14, 2021

Some people want to be right, at least in their minds, and will ignore anything fact that does not support their views. They refuse to look at history on way some people have doubt about the safety of the vaccine. They dismiss any idea as not valid even though like jive turkey says we are dealing with humans not binary codes.

chare · Sep 14, 2021

11 hours ago, Hannahbanana said:

12 hours ago, BostonFNP said:

Would you be surprised to learn that people answered that same survey question about the same way well before any government mandates?

Citation, please.
How long before? Right after the polio epidemic was resolved? When measles and mumps no longer rendered babies and children deaf or blind? When tetorifice didn’t mean a horrible death? When people bitten by rabid dogs didn’t have to have the village blacksmith cauterize the wound with red-hot iron and hope it killed the virus before it got into the CSF? Do tell.

You are taking this completely out of context. To fully appreciate @BostonFNP's response you need to read the complete post, not the quoted segment.

15 hours ago, BostonFNP said:

To be clear here, I use the terms valid and invalid from a scientific perspective.

These perspectives should absolutely not be dismissed: they should be combated. The vast majority of the hesitancy we see with covid vaccination at this point has no valid or justifiable scientific reason behind it. If you look at the survey data on hesitancy above it shows:

The vaccines are too new (65%)

The FDA hasn’t fully approved the vaccines yet (47%)

I’m concerned about short-term side effects (48%)

I’m concerned about long-term side effects (71%)

Don’t trust any vaccines (29%)

Don’t trust the government (54%)

Don’t trust drug companies (50%)

[...]

allnurses Guide · Sep 14, 2021

12 hours ago, jive turkey said:

Planes do crash. It wouldn't be accurate to say someone's fear of flying is unjustified considering crashing is possible even though they're rare.

Statistically, the plane is the vaccine and the car is no vaccination without previous infection. On paper one appears safer but control is surrendered.

2. Even before mandates, the government was a primary source of information and direction. They can not be removed from the equation.

When you call it "excuses" that accuses people of being insincere. I.e. calling in sick as an excuse to go to a concert.

-What is the challenge understanding people have genuine concerns and there are situations where those concerns are supported by facts and history?

-A dismissive attitude of people's fears in this regard, works AGAINST vaccination.

What's more important? Being correct or increasing vaccinations?

Yes planes do crash, vaccines do have side effects, but that doesn't change the fact the they are both scientifically and statistically very safe; there is no scientific/statistical validity/justification for hesitancy with either. That's not discounting that people feel that way, they do, but it is not routed or justified in objective data. No one is dismissing that people have emotions and anxieties that are "valid" to them and that needs to be dealt with on an individual level; but that doesn't mean that scientifically those fears are valid.

Most of (a significant portion of) vaccine hesitancy right now is an excuse. There is a large group of people that made up their mind against being vaccinated (frequently nowadays on a political basis) and then shopped for reasons to justify that choice.

I have the covid vaccine discussion with patients multiple times per day. I think that anyone that is talking with patients right now about vaccines are hearing the same thing: politico-media rubbish excuses. When I talk with patients I don't tell them their excuse is invalid or dismiss them but I do counter them with objective facts and most people just move down to the next excuse and it repeats.

allnurses Guide · Sep 14, 2021

11 hours ago, Hannahbanana said:

Citation, please.
How long before? Right after the polio epidemic was resolved? When measles and mumps no longer rendered babies and children deaf or blind? When tetorifice didn’t mean a horrible death? When people bitten by rabid dogs didn’t have to have the village blacksmith cauterize the wound with red-hot iron and hope it killed the virus before it got into the CSF? Do tell.

I’ll bet it was well before everything, everything, everything got distorted by the lens that says every reporter, scientist, and researcher is upside facto untrustworthy. And who benefits?

I don't really follow the post, sorry.

Yahoo! News and YouGov has been running a monthly covid vaccination survey for the past year. The number of people citing distrust of the government has remained relatively stable since the vaccines were first granted EUA and started to be given, long before any type of private or government mandates existed.

allnurses Guide · Sep 14, 2021

3 hours ago, Jeckrn1 said:

Some people want to be right, at least in their minds, and will ignore anything fact that does not support their views. They refuse to look at history on way some people have doubt about the safety of the vaccine. They dismiss any idea as not valid even though like jive turkey says we are dealing with humans not binary codes.

Do you believe that covid vaccination is safe and effective?