Using Your Nursing Credentials to Validate Anti-Vaxxer Theories

[Helen Crump]

As nurses we are supposed to understand and follow science. Yet all over the country nurses are using their background to validate crackpot theories about Covid and the vaccine. Should there be consequences for leading an effort to hurt the public health? After all, it violates basic nursing ethics in particular, do no harm. Should boards of nurses sanction these people or should the ANA or other associations put out a statement saying these folk don't represent us?

[nursej22, MSN, RN]

On 9/8/2021 at 7:44 AM, Hoosier_RN said:

The FDA has approved many meds that have later been found to be harmful. Again, I refer the unvaxxed to have a conversation with their PCP, or other MD/NP in their care chain to give information appropriate to their unique health status

And weren't those meds dosed on a daily basis, not a 1/2 cc  once or twice?  

And I have trouble believing any of those harmful meds were studied as in depth as these vaccines. 

[nursej22, MSN, RN]

1 hour ago, Bretside said:

  I can however now require a nurse to take a medication in this case a vaccine or lose their job?  

What has your facility done to overcome their reluctance? When you advise research, are you pointing them to reputable sources of information? As you can see from these several threads, when people are left to search answers on their own, they tend to look for sources that agree with them and discount those that don't. 

Have any of your providers come forth to counsel the holdouts and answer any questions they have? 

And yes, you can require an employee to take a vaccine as a condition of employment. 

[CShel, ASN]

4 hours ago, nursej22 said:

And yes, you can require an employee to take a vaccine as a condition of employment. 

I didn't actually know this, so I looked it up. Given that the federal government has stated that employers can mandate the Covid vaccine, it AMAZES me that there are hospitals that don't do it. It's crazy to me.

I am in nursing school and we have all been required to get the vaccine so that we can do clinicals in the 3 hospitals here in town. The VA has mandated every employee to get them, but until this month, the other two had not. So while nursing students had to have it, the NURSES were not actually required.

We are having problems finding enough patients to work with because the hospitals are overrun with Covid patients and we're not allowed to be in the same area with them. They've spilled over into every ward. Last year, the cohort ahead of us got NO clinicals (only virtual). Get your damn shots, people. It makes me want to scream.

[Hoosier_RN, MSN]

8 hours ago, nursej22 said:

And weren't those meds dosed on a daily basis, not a 1/2 cc  once or twice?  

And I have trouble believing any of those harmful meds were studied as in depth as these vaccines. 

Where are the long term studies on these specific vaccines? I've yet to find any, and have emailed Pfizer, received a response that amounted to "the FDA is confident in the results thus far with the vaccine". They rolled out these vaccines in less than a year, so there are none specific to any of the available. There are studies on mRNA, but for other medications. 

Before anyone comes at me for being antivax: I've had 2 Moderna injections, with severe reactions both times. I had covid just prior, waited 60 days as my PCP advised between illness and vax. I will take a booster if PCP recommends, although I know it will most likely cause a reaction again. I've had just about every other applicable vaccine that is acceptable for my age group as well.

I tell anyone who has doubts to talk to their PCP, who knows their unique health profile. 

Recently, a traveling tech at my clinic took it upon herself to lecture a patient as to why she (the patient) had "refused the shot" and her being a detriment to society, then proceeded to tell her that soon we would be able to refuse to perform her dialysis treatments, which she deserved, and that she would die, as she also deserved, due to lack of treatments or from covid, whichever got her first, per this tech. Patient in tears. Nephrologist so happened to come in to round and caught wind of this. Patient had been advised by nephrologist, cardiologist, and PCP to not receive the vaccine. I don't know all of the why's, but I figure if there are notes per these MDs in the patient chart, there's a good medical reason. Nephrologist was furious, told clinic manager to get traveller out of there. She's gone, won't be back. I wasn't there when it happened, but we had a major staff meeting about it. As nurses, we educate, not lecture or judge! Other staff is to reinforce our teaching and report need for further education or discussion with patient. For all who are stating an either or for the vax, this could've been your mom/sister/aunt/friend left crying in the chair. Do we really want to be that healthcare provider? I know I don't...

[nursej22, MSN, RN]

3 minutes ago, Hoosier_RN said:

Where are the long term studies on these specific vaccines? I've yet to find any, and have emailed Pfizer, received a response that amounted to "the FDA is confident in the results thus far with the vaccine". They rolled out these vaccines in less than a year, so there are none specific to any of the available. There are studies on mRNA, but for other medications. 

 

I tell anyone who has doubts to talk to their PCP, who knows their unique health profile. 

.

I don't understand why this question about long term studies on the vaccines keeps getting asked. It's obvious that it is not possible to have any. There is no reason to expect any, both because of the history of other vaccines. Plus, in my opinion, the dose is miniscule. 

Yes people should talk to their PCP, if they have one. Who do you advise they should turn to if they don't have a PCP? 

I'm not sure why you bring up the story about your traveler. They were clearly out of line. There has always been an exemption for medical reasons.  

[Bonni, ASN, RN]

No more discussion. President Biden just mandated all health care workers and many more, must get vaccine.

[Hoosier_RN, MSN]

31 minutes ago, nursej22 said:

I don't understand why this question about long term studies on the vaccines keeps getting asked. It's obvious that it is not possible to have any. There is no reason to expect any, both because of the history of other vaccines. Plus, in my opinion, the dose is miniscule. 

Yes people should talk to their PCP, if they have one. Who do you advise they should turn to if they don't have a PCP? 

I'm not sure why you bring up the story about your traveler. They were clearly out of line. There has always been an exemption for medical reasons.  

In your reply to me, you mentioned the longterm studies on this vaccine. As far as miniscule, fentanyl can kill you in a miniscule dose, compared to other narcotics. I know, not the same, but all the same, if a medication is not right for an individual,  it doesn't matter if the dose is miniscule or large.

As far as PCP, many who don't have a PCP use the ER for primary care. In this case, referrals can be made and a case manager follow up. But everyone that I personally know that has refused the vaccine is upper middle class, and does have a PCP. Those with lack of resources went to the free clinic in my area.

My story about the tech is in regards to anyone on AN who states that we should refuse to care for anyone who hasn't been vaccinated. This post, and many others, littered with the comments of refusing care to those not vaccinated. 

[Leah Hona, RN]

This is a tricky one because COVID is unlike anything we’ve seen before. I think the bottom line is, it is much more dangerous for our elderly or sick patients to be exposed to COVID than it is for them to suffer a fall. The longer this virus stays around, the more it mutates and the more dangerous it becomes. Our hospitals are becoming overwhelmed again with COVID patients as this new strain surges, and we just can’t afford to have any ‘typhoid Mary’s” helping it along. 

[nursej22, MSN, RN]

2 hours ago, Hoosier_RN said:

In your reply to me, you mentioned the longterm studies on this vaccine. As far as miniscule, fentanyl can kill you in a miniscule dose, compared to other narcotics. I know, not the same, but all the same, if a medication is not right for an individual,  it doesn't matter if the dose is miniscule or large.

As far as PCP, many who don't have a PCP use the ER for primary care. In this case, referrals can be made and a case manager follow up. But everyone that I personally know that has refused the vaccine is upper middle class, and does have a PCP. Those with lack of resources went to the free clinic in my area.

My story about the tech is in regards to anyone on AN who states that we should refuse to care for anyone who hasn't been vaccinated. This post, and many others, littered with the comments of refusing care to those not vaccinated. 

Yes, fentanyl can kill you, but as far as I know it doesn’t happen years after a 1/2 cc is injected IM.  
 

I found one report online that said as many 25% of Americans don’t have a PCP. Even community health clinics in my area charge $25 at a minimum. No wonder people don’t seek care unless they’re ill. 
 

The only post I’ve seen about refusing care was in reference to a PCP who didn’t want to watch their patient die of COVID. 

[ZenLover, MSN, RN, NP]

What amazes me are the number of employees anywhere acting like this vaccine is the first mandate ever.  Umm...TB testing, even outside of healthcare.  And if you had a positive result you had to do chest x-rays with months of meds that have a lot more side effects than this vaccine and STILL DO.  But any way.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if you get on social media and advertise you are a Registered Nurse and then give out health advice you are asking for it, even long before now.  You don't know who you are interacting with, if they are being honest and if you are just generally stating stuff you better be able to back it up as not being YOUR words.  Even as a MSN prepared nurse you are limited on giving recommendations for any diagnosis.  I am friends with many doctors I work with and they don't say squat on line...FOR A REASON and they have a much larger scope than we.

I have also noticed than there a lot of people calling themselves nurses that are not and that can come with its own set of charges if you give out advice as if you are, someone takes it and then is harmed.

Give advice at your own risk and if you share your opinion on COVID or the Vaccine I would say don't state your opinion along with your licensure status unless you are sharing your organizations views along with their permission to do so.

I had an argument online with a nurse telling people to take Ivermectin and please don't get me restarted on that....but reminded her she is a nurse and her advice was outside of her scope as well as being actively debunked by large University Health Systems all over the US.  The only thing one has to do is screen shot her recommendations and send it in to her board...if she was even a nurse, because on line who knows.

[Hannahbanana, BSN, MSN]

On 8/31/2021 at 5:53 PM, JBMmom said:

But if you truly believe that what you're doing is to help others, then using social media or giving your opinion is not inappropriate. 

This reminds me of the famous congressional hearing with the heads of several big tobacco companies saying they “didn’t believe smoking was harmful.” Said with straight faces but clearly their attorneys told them that no one could challenge a sincerely held belief. ************ all the way. 

[Ohio NP]

2 hours ago, ZenLover said:

What amazes me are the number of employees anywhere acting like this vaccine is the first mandate ever.  Umm...TB testing, even outside of healthcare.  And if you had a positive result you had to do chest x-rays with months of meds that have a lot more side effects than this vaccine and STILL DO.  But any way.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if you get on social media and advertise you are a Registered Nurse and then give out health advice you are asking for it, even long before now.  You don't know who you are interacting with, if they are being honest and if you are just generally stating stuff you better be able to back it up as not being YOUR words.  Even as a MSN prepared nurse you are limited on giving recommendations for any diagnosis.  I am friends with many doctors I work with and they don't say squat on line...FOR A REASON and they have a much larger scope than we.

I have also noticed than there a lot of people calling themselves nurses that are not and that can come with its own set of charges if you give out advice as if you are, someone takes it and then is harmed.

Give advice at your own risk and if you share your opinion on COVID or the Vaccine I would say don't state your opinion along with your licensure status unless you are sharing your organizations views along with their permission to do so.

I had an argument online with a nurse telling people to take Ivermectin and please don't get me restarted on that....but reminded her she is a nurse and her advice was outside of her scope as well as being actively debunked by large University Health Systems all over the US.  The only thing one has to do is screen shot her recommendations and send it in to her board...if she was even a nurse, because on line who knows.

Yep nurses are not allowed to prescribe. And in case anyone is wondering prescribing is not just writing a prescription on a pad or sending it to the pharmacy electronically. The definition of prescribing is the act of giving medication instructions to a patient, even recommending an OTC med to a patient is considered prescribing. Every single nurse making medication recommendations on line are completely and entirely outside their scope of practice and if any of the state boards wanted to they could sanction you just on that. When you post on facebook to take a certain medication that can entirely be interpreted as prescribing to everyone in your feed. Pump the brakes nurses and get back in your lane.