Using Your Nursing Credentials to Validate Anti-Vaxxer Theories

[Helen Crump]

As nurses we are supposed to understand and follow science. Yet all over the country nurses are using their background to validate crackpot theories about Covid and the vaccine. Should there be consequences for leading an effort to hurt the public health? After all, it violates basic nursing ethics in particular, do no harm. Should boards of nurses sanction these people or should the ANA or other associations put out a statement saying these folk don't represent us?

[BostonFNP, APRN]

3 hours ago, Jeckrn1 said:

  Don’t say it’s because it’s the women’s choice and then say anyone does not have the right to say no to the Covid vaccines. 

That issue concerns the government making it illegal for health care professionals to provide specific care. 

If you support that, then similarly, you would also support it if the government made it illegal for healthcare professionals to treat an unvaccinated persons with covid?  

 

[toomuchbaloney]

3 hours ago, Jeckrn1 said:

Personal choice is personal choice. If posters imply that it’s not right for someone to make a personal choice which might kill another human being.  Why are they not up in arms when a personal choice will always kill another human being?  

Oddly enough, some of the very same people speak passionately against abortion and against vaccination. Many of the people who want everyone to vaccinate to hurry us to the relative normalcy of herd immunity also want fewer abortions and try to achieve that with better reproductive healthcare access for ALL women...but that's a different thread.  

Personal choice about a vaccine preventable disease is a much different choice from a choice to terminate a pregnancy. If we can't start a conversation on even that bit of obvious reality then what's the point? Think about it this way...

An abortion in a Wuhan lab or in a wet market wouldn't have us in a global pandemic of abortions. 

[Helen Crump]

4 hours ago, Jeckrn1 said:

Personal choice is personal choice. If posters imply that it’s not right for someone to make a personal choice which might kill another human being.  Why are they not up in arms when a personal choice will always kill another human being?  

Stop with this. Don't dirty up my discussion with an abortion diversion. It is not the same. Not at all. 

 

[DedHedRN]

To lump every single nurse that raises  legitimate concerns about a vaccine into a anti-VAXer category is alarming.  I took Microbiology. I was a lucky one and my teacher was fresh out of biological weapons manufacturing. She was a really good teacher and only seven people at a 40 past her class. I was one of the ones who busted their *** to understand Microbiology at a level the only biological weapons engineer could teach. The concerns are real. Experts in the field, Some of the very best experts in the nation are now being portrayed as crazy anti-VAXers. People who spend their entire lives developing vaccines. I understand but the pressure is coming down hard from the president the media, the vaccine companies, those in power. But when have we ever let politicians and presidents tell us what to do in our private patient caregiver relationships? When has forcing medical treatment on someone been acceptable? And when has being cautious about a new untested (barely) treatment been grounds for removal for your license. Last time I checked this vaccine hasn’t even been out for a year. And from last I heard the reason it wasn’t released before now was because it has not been able to be proven to be as safe as it needed to be. But now I guess the loss of thousands of peoples lives that were perfectly healthy is OK with everyone now. Taking away peoples livelihoods is apparently cool now. Nurses who don’t seem to care whose lives they destroy in the meantime. I thought we were supposed to have compassion. Understanding. Open to discussion of scientific ideas. I’m glad to be a nurse with a brain who thinks about things and researches things and listens to people who have opposing ideas. After talking to 7000 people this year about their health, and many of them having an adverse reactions to the vaccines, I’m not getting one. And if any of you care to know why, I don’t mind having an in-depth discussion with you. I’m really amazed at how quickly people have just thrown caution to the wind. So if this vaccine has devastating affects three years from now five years from now 10 years from now, I hope everybody learns a little something about running full speed head first into the unknown. Not a concern in your minds. I hope this isn’t antibody mediated viral enhancement like some vaccine experts are thinking. But that’s OK, you all can shut them down like their big Dumbo’s. I mean I’m sure the politicians and the CEOs of the hospitals the paper- pencil pushers at the CDC and FDA know more than experts. 

[jive turkey]

10 minutes ago, DedHedRN said:

To lump every single nurse that raises  legitimate concerns about a vaccine into a anti-VAXer category is alarming.  I took Microbiology. I was a lucky one and my teacher was fresh out of biological weapons manufacturing. She was a really good teacher and only seven people at a 40 past her class. I was one of the ones who busted their *** to understand Microbiology at a level the only biological weapons engineer could teach. The concerns are real. Experts in the field, Some of the very best experts in the nation are now being portrayed as crazy anti-VAXers. People who spend their entire lives developing vaccines. I understand but the pressure is coming down hard from the president the media, the vaccine companies, those in power. But when have we ever let politicians and presidents tell us what to do in our private patient caregiver relationships? When has forcing medical treatment on someone been acceptable? And when has being cautious about a new untested (barely) treatment been grounds for removal for your license. Last time I checked this vaccine hasn’t even been out for a year. And from last I heard the reason it wasn’t released before now was because it has not been able to be proven to be as safe as it needed to be. But now I guess the loss of thousands of peoples lives that were perfectly healthy is OK with everyone now. Taking away peoples livelihoods is apparently cool now. Nurses who don’t seem to care whose lives they destroy in the meantime. I thought we were supposed to have compassion. Understanding. Open to discussion of scientific ideas. I’m glad to be a nurse with a brain who thinks about things and researches things and listens to people who have opposing ideas. After talking to 7000 people this year about their health, and many of them having an adverse reactions to the vaccines, I’m not getting one. And if any of you care to know why, I don’t mind having an in-depth discussion with you. I’m really amazed at how quickly people have just thrown caution to the wind. So if this vaccine has devastating affects three years from now five years from now 10 years from now, I hope everybody learns a little something about running full speed head first into the unknown. Not a concern in your minds. I hope this isn’t antibody mediated viral enhancement like some vaccine experts are thinking. But that’s OK, you all can shut them down like their big Dumbo’s. I mean I’m sure the politicians and the CEOs of the hospitals the paper- pencil pushers at the CDC and FDA know more than experts. 

Now that's what I'm talking about.  Wish more perspectives like this would show up to these discussions.  I'll gladly exchange information and debate this subject with you. 

I completely agree it is wrong and unproductive to categorize anyone with an objection to this vaccine as an "Anti vaxxer"

You mentioned your professor had experience with biological warfare. Was that reference just to highlight their credentials or were you making a connection to that and this vaccine?

[emtb2rn, BSN, RN, EMT-B]

4 minutes ago, DedHedRN said:

To lump every single nurse that raises  legitimate concerns about a vaccine into a anti-VAXer category is alarming.  I took Microbiology. I was a lucky one and my teacher was fresh out of biological weapons manufacturing. She was a really good teacher and only seven people at a 40 past her class. I was one of the ones who busted their *** to understand Microbiology at a level the only biological weapons engineer could teach. The concerns are real. Experts in the field, Some of the very best experts in the nation are now being portrayed as crazy anti-VAXers. People who spend their entire lives developing vaccines. I understand but the pressure is coming down hard from the president the media, the vaccine companies, those in power. But when have we ever let politicians and presidents tell us what to do in our private patient caregiver relationships? When has forcing medical treatment on someone been acceptable? And when has being cautious about a new untested (barely) treatment been grounds for removal for your license. Last time I checked this vaccine hasn’t even been out for a year. And from last I heard the reason it wasn’t released before now was because it has not been able to be proven to be as safe as it needed to be. But now I guess the loss of thousands of peoples lives that were perfectly healthy is OK with everyone now. Taking away peoples livelihoods is apparently cool now. Nurses who don’t seem to care whose lives they destroy in the meantime. I thought we were supposed to have compassion. Understanding. Open to discussion of scientific ideas. I’m glad to be a nurse with a brain who thinks about things and researches things and listens to people who have opposing ideas. After talking to 7000 people this year about their health, and many of them having an adverse reactions to the vaccines, I’m not getting one. And if any of you care to know why, I don’t mind having an in-depth discussion with you. I’m really amazed at how quickly people have just thrown caution to the wind. So if this vaccine has devastating affects three years from now five years from now 10 years from now, I hope everybody learns a little something about running full speed head first into the unknown. Not a concern in your minds. I hope this isn’t antibody mediated viral enhancement like some vaccine experts are thinking. But that’s OK, you all can shut them down like their big Dumbo’s. I mean I’m sure the politicians and the CEOs of the hospitals the paper- pencil pushers at the CDC and FDA know more than experts. 

Paragraphs please.

“More Than 5.79 Billion Shots Given”. You talked to 7,000 people about getting vaccinated? Really?  I find that impossible to believe. And assuming you talked for 5 minutes to 7,000 people which took 35,000 minutes which is 18 months of working 160 hours per month, wait, the vaccine has only been available for 10 months, so, I guess I need to change part of that equation. Maybe I’ll lower the interview time to 15 seconds….

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-global-distribution/

Anyway, name one vaccine that  has done this. 

Wait, what? You’re saying the CDC & the fda aren’t the experts?

[BostonFNP, APRN]

32 minutes ago, DedHedRN said:

To lump every single nurse that raises  legitimate concerns about a vaccine into a anti-VAXer category is alarming.

Do you have a legitimate concern to raise? 

 I took Microbiology. I was a lucky one and my teacher was fresh out of biological weapons manufacturing. She was a really good teacher and only seven people at a 40 past her class. I was one of the ones who busted their *** to understand Microbiology at a level the only biological weapons engineer could teach. The concerns are real. Experts in the field, Some of the very best experts in the nation are now being portrayed as crazy anti-VAXers. People who spend their entire lives developing vaccines.

Was this an undergrad Microbiology 101 class? Experts. Some of the very best. Cite them here so we can discuss.

 And when has being cautious about a new untested (barely) treatment been grounds for removal for your license. Last time I checked this vaccine hasn’t even been out for a year.

5.79 billion doses of covid vaccine have been given, 380 million doses in the US alone. We have witnessed the worlds largest open-label, non-branded, real-world clinic trial in history over the past year and a half. Efficacy proven. Safety proven. If you have data to suggest otherwise, please cite it. And no one is losing their license Tom being cautious. They are losing their licenses for spreading false information and conspiracy theory under the guise of being an expert. 

After talking to 7000 people this year about their health, and many of them having an adverse reactions to the vaccines, I’m not getting one.

You spoke to 135 people a week this past year about vaccine adverse reactions; assuming you did a thorough case analysis which would take at least 15 minutes if not an hour, that makes for a 40 hour week right there, impressive. Enlighten us to these adverse reactions. Have you published on it yet?

And if any of you care to know why, I don’t mind having an in-depth discussion with you.

I'd love to know.

So if this vaccine has devastating affects three years from now five years from now 10 years from now, I hope everybody learns a little something about running full speed head first into the unknown.

In the history of vaccination has this happened? By what mechanism would a vaccine cause devastating effects years down the road. 

 I hope this isn’t antibody mediated viral enhancement like some vaccine experts are thinking.

Can you explain why, if there is antibody mediated viral enhancement, 95% of critically ill cases are unvaccinated. Or why vaccination results in largest risk reductions in moderate and severe illness over asymptomatic and mild illness? Because that's the complete opposite of what would be seen in antibody mediated viral enhancement. 

But that’s OK, you all can shut them down like their big Dumbo’s. I mean I’m sure the politicians and the CEOs of the hospitals the paper- pencil pushers at the CDC and FDA know more than experts.

Experts like you? After what I hope was at least a graduate level Microbiology course?

 

[DedHedRN]

Just trying to be a voice of reason. If you guys want to read more into my post then I’m actually saying or put words in my mouth I can’t stop you. But that’s OK I’m just gonna sit back and watch what happens. I’ll get the vaccine in eight years if it doesn’t cause the illnesses that I think it’s causing already. Well I better get out of this nursing forum before half the nurses here pick up their torches and pitchforks and try to remove my license. Don’t forget though, someone did try to warn you. And maybe in a couple years I’ll come back and tell you that I told you so right here on this very post. Good Luck with your vaccines! I really truly do hope that they are not doing what I think they’re doing.

[Helen Crump]

30 minutes ago, DedHedRN said:

To lump every single nurse that raises  legitimate concerns about a vaccine into a anti-VAXer category is alarming.  I took Microbiology. I was a lucky one and my teacher was fresh out of biological weapons manufacturing. She was a really good teacher and only seven people at a 40 past her class. I was one of the ones who busted their *** to understand Microbiology at a level the only biological weapons engineer could teach. The concerns are real. Experts in the field, Some of the very best experts in the nation are now being portrayed as crazy anti-VAXers. People who spend their entire lives developing vaccines. I understand but the pressure is coming down hard from the president the media, the vaccine companies, those in power. But when have we ever let politicians and presidents tell us what to do in our private patient caregiver relationships? When has forcing medical treatment on someone been acceptable? And when has being cautious about a new untested (barely) treatment been grounds for removal for your license. Last time I checked this vaccine hasn’t even been out for a year. And from last I heard the reason it wasn’t released before now was because it has not been able to be proven to be as safe as it needed to be. But now I guess the loss of thousands of peoples lives that were perfectly healthy is OK with everyone now. Taking away peoples livelihoods is apparently cool now. Nurses who don’t seem to care whose lives they destroy in the meantime. I thought we were supposed to have compassion. Understanding. Open to discussion of scientific ideas. I’m glad to be a nurse with a brain who thinks about things and researches things and listens to people who have opposing ideas. After talking to 7000 people this year about their health, and many of them having an adverse reactions to the vaccines, I’m not getting one. And if any of you care to know why, I don’t mind having an in-depth discussion with you. I’m really amazed at how quickly people have just thrown caution to the wind. So if this vaccine has devastating affects three years from now five years from now 10 years from now, I hope everybody learns a little something about running full speed head first into the unknown. Not a concern in your minds. I hope this isn’t antibody mediated viral enhancement like some vaccine experts are thinking. But that’s OK, you all can shut them down like their big Dumbo’s. I mean I’m sure the politicians and the CEOs of the hospitals the paper- pencil pushers at the CDC and FDA know more than experts. 

Who lumped every single nurse that raises objections into one category? There is a difference between someone who has an objection grounded in thorough, scientific research and an anti-vaxxer. To be clear, an anti-vaxxer is not even the same as vaccine-hesitant. People can have doubts and objections. Of course, they can. They should, science must always be questioned and tested over and over again. 

 

But that's not what I am talking about. 

 

The anti-vaxxers' objections are based on their belief that their personal freedoms are somehow being violated. They don't trust the government. The vaccine is going to alter their DNA. It's going to affect their freedom. The vaccine has a microchip so they can be tracked. COVID is not that bad. And on and on and on. Worse of all, it isn't enough that they have made a decision to risk their own health. They pass on this gross misinformation, and there are nurses who agree with it or parrot it, thus somehow validating it. They claim to have firsthand knowledge of large numbers of people who have been harmed by the vaccine. They pass on anecdotes that seem to confirm the general public's worst fears. That's wrong. That's who I'm talking about.

 

[jive turkey]

10 minutes ago, Helen Crump said:

The anti-vaxxers' objections are based on their belief that

1.their personal freedoms are somehow being violated.

2.They don't trust the government.

3.The vaccine is going to alter their DNA.

4.It's going to affect their freedom.

5.The vaccine has a microchip so they can be tracked.

6COVID is not that bad. 

7.They claim to have firsthand knowledge of large numbers of people who have been harmed by the vaccine.

8They pass on anecdotes that seem to confirm the general public's worst fears. That's wrong. That's who I'm talking about.

 

I could agree 5 and 6 belong to the hard core extreme perspective that's labeled the anti vaxxer

7. Is hard to argue when you can't prove who they do and don't know and what happened.  I can appreciate having doubts about their claims. 

8. Extreme perspective pro and contra vaccine do this (I e. CNN and FOX). Both need to be more balanced

1-4 I don't agree rise to the level of anti vaxxer

[toomuchbaloney]

1 hour ago, jive turkey said:

1-4 I don't agree rise to the level of anti vaxxer

 

1 hour ago, jive turkey said:

1 hour ago, Helen Crump said:

The anti-vaxxers' objections are based on their belief that

1.their personal freedoms are somehow being violated.

2.They don't trust the government.

3.The vaccine is going to alter their DNA.

4.It's going to affect their freedom.

I disagree that these reasons to remain unvaccinated don't rise to the level of antivaxxer. Is there some criteria for antivaxxer status beyond refusing important vaccination based upon fears, suspicions, pseudoscience, conspiracies and/or distrust of authority?

Loss of freedom...having to follow public health guidelines is equated to loss of freedom...accounts for 2 of the 4. That seems like such an absurd argument when more than 650k of our countrymen have died from this disease.  It seems so absurd when you consider the thousands who have long term illness from infection.  

[BostonFNP, APRN]

8 hours ago, DedHedRN said:

 I’ll get the vaccine in eight years if it doesn’t cause the illnesses that I think it’s causing already. 

Bolded and italicized for emphasis. 

You think the vaccine is causing illness based on one Microbiology course? Or the "7,000" people you "talked to"? Or what seems to be a complete lack of understanding on what antibody mediated enhancement is?

Best of luck in your new career. I hope you stay safe; this virus doesn't care what your personal thoughts are and has already prematurely ended the lives of many people that thought vaccines were more dangerous than the virus.