Undocumented Patients

Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP · Dec 30, 2016

I don't understand how someone who is "undocumented" meaning they do not have any type of government issued number/permit/ID/social security or ID numbers in order to pay any kind of taxes with - how these people are paying taxes?
I know that DOCUMENTED temporary immigrants who are not necessarily citizens, but who have work visas, or temp visas for which they must reapply, or if they are here on another status such as political asylum -etc - all those people have numbers are are paying taxes - they are DOCUMENTED. they are also eligible for Medicaid/medicare and would not be in the predicament I am speaking of.
Undocumented do not have ANY VALID id numbers, and there fore are not paying any kind of taxes (except sales tax at a store where they pay cash). They get jobs down at the corner and are usually hired under the table to split funds from someone who is documented-and those people can't claim them or file taxes for them because they have no valid ID's. they do not have insurance, because they don't have numbers - they are undocumented. They do NOT pay any kind of taxes, nor do they qualify for any kind of medical programs which is why they are stuck in our system.

Undocumented people can (and do) apply for an individual tax ID number (ITIN) from the IRS. This is only used for filing taxes. You can apply for an ITIN as the nonimmigrant spouse of a US citizen here or abroad, as an undocumented person living in the US, or for just about any other reason that you would need to file taxes but don't qualify for a SSN. That's how they're paying taxes. My husband (undocumented for 15 years) did this, ergo, he paid taxes for every year that he made enough to even have to pay them.

Individual Taxpayer Identification Number

As for the assertion that they pay no taxes of any kind? Sales tax, just like you and me. If they're working on a work authorization or fake papers, SS and Medicare taxes. And income taxes as outlined above.

Zooey72 · Dec 30, 2016

Here is where having a degree in history helps. There are things called "primary sources". I stated an Arizona law and the Supreme Court as well what the president's policy change on what a "deportation" actually is. Those are undisputed. Arizona SB 17 - Wikipedia

I posted a link on how he redefined deportation. You do not have an opinion on this any more than someone has an opinion if water is wet. These are laws and FACTS (or in the case of how BO redefined it, an executive order).

As far as where you said "ID can not be used to identify people". You said it can not be used to identify citizenship (I fail to understand your distinction here, but ok). I have just shown you laws passed by Arizona that says that it can be used, and that the Supreme Court upheld that driver's licenses can be a lead to determining legal status (as in if you don't have one, it could be used as a basis to follow up).

And if you are helping illegals with their tax returns what social security # are you using? Because if you are using any you are committing a felony. Again, FACT! Whether the federal government decides to pursue your criminal act (if indeed you are knowingly preparing their papers with a false SS#) is up to their discretion, but it makes it no less a crime.

And if you have 'helped them with their taxes', as you claim to have you know as well as I do that almost 1/2 of the country does not pay federal income tax. If you are helping them file it is because they do not reach the income level to where they contribute, and hence they take more than they give. So you are withholding information you know not to be true when you state "they don't want to break another law" would not be their motivation. If they are filing they are getting a check, because if you are here illegally I can pretty much guarantee you that you do not make enough money for you to contribute more than you take. Our tax structure does not work that way and you (should) know that.

Forbes Welcome

Try the logic test again even if you don't 'feel like' looking at the facts I have given you. Does it make any rational sense to you that a man who has given amnesty to millions of 'dreamers', and attempted executive amnesty on millions more (stopped by the Supreme Court in a 4-4 tie, which by default was upheld by the federal court below it), and has publicly stated that he will not deport non-felon illegals, could at the same time have deported more illegals than any other president? Who exactly is he deporting?

Look up "Operation Wetback", (I didn't name the thing, don't blame me). That took place in the 50's and that is where you will find the most deported.

Look up the term "primary source" as well.

Zooey72 · Dec 30, 2016

Undocumented people can (and do) apply for an individual tax ID number (ITIN) from the IRS. This is only used for filing taxes. You can apply for an ITIN as the nonimmigrant spouse of a US citizen here or abroad, as an undocumented person living in the US, or for just about any other reason that you would need to file taxes but don't qualify for a SSN. That's how they're paying taxes. My husband (undocumented for 15 years) did this, ergo, he paid taxes for every year that he made enough to even have to pay them.
Individual Taxpayer Identification Number
As for the assertion that they pay no taxes of any kind? Sales tax, just like you and me. If they're working on a work authorization or fake papers, SS and Medicare taxes. And income taxes as outlined above.

Thank you for that. I was not aware that existed. I find it a bit absurd that it does, since the government is in essence saying "It is against the law to be here illegally, but if you do we have set up the system for you". This seems rather crazy on the illegals part to participate in this. If the federal government does decide to deport they now have a registry to do it with.

I was speaking of federal and state income tax (if your state has one) to which they would not contribute unless they made more than 45 percent of the country. You can't buy anything in this country w/o paying sales tax so that is a given. But having fake papers means identity theft of some kind because the government will find you if that information can not be traced to a real individual.

AliNajaCat · Dec 30, 2016

What do you think about undocumented patients who abuse the hospital system? Anyone have undocumented patients who basically live at the hospital because their families can't take care of them, and they can't go to a facility because of their undocumented status?

I say to myself, "There but for fortune go I," and give them whatever kindness I can, because they sure aren't getting much from anywhere else (including, it sounds like, people like you).

Longleggedstar · Dec 30, 2016

Thank you for that. I was not aware that existed. I find it a bit absurd that it does, since the government is in essence saying "It is against the law to be here illegally, but if you do we have set up the system for you". This seems rather crazy on the illegals part to participate in this. If the federal government does decide to deport they now have a registry to do it with.
I was speaking of federal and state income tax (if your state has one) to which they would not contribute unless they made more than 45 percent of the country. You can't buy anything in this country w/o paying sales tax so that is a given. But having fake papers means identity theft of some kind because the government will find you if that information can not be traced to a real individual.

Finally you are able to soak in some real knowledge...glad Elvish could get you to understand that illegal immigrants do file taxes, maybe he can get you to understand that some also pay for healthcare and can have ID.

nifty_n · Dec 30, 2016

Why do you think or assume that there is a correlation between being undocumented and abusing the hospital system? You're implying (wrongly i might add) that undocumented people are more likely to "abuse the hospital system" than documented citizens. Undocumented people are the least likely group to seek out medical help because of the stigma of being undocumented and more importantly the fear of being deported.

MunoRN, RN · Dec 30, 2016

Here is where having a degree in history helps. There are things called "primary sources". I stated an Arizona law and the Supreme Court as well what the president's policy change on what a "deportation" actually is. Those are undisputed.
Arizona SB 17 - Wikipedia
I posted a link on how he redefined deportation. You do not have an opinion on this any more than someone has an opinion if water is wet. These are laws and FACTS (or in the case of how BO redefined it, an executive order)...

(Bolding mine)

You posted a link to this article, which doesn't actually say Obama redefined deportation. What it says is that previously, both ICE and the Border patrol were deporting illegals, then under President Bush the process was changed so that ICE handled all deportations which started changing how the numbers are calculated since deportation numbers come from ICE, not the border patrol. Obama has continued with the change Bush made and to be honest it makes sense; the first priority should be to keep illegal crossings from happening in the first place, so letting the Border patrol focus on border security, rather than deportation, seems like common sense.

Zooey72 · Dec 31, 2016

No,

What Obama did was change how the numbers were counted. Before people taken at the border and deported in a day or 2 were not counted. BO counted them. It would be like someone saying that the hospital has had more traffic than ever before because they started counting the people who called the hospital in addition to who actually got services there. I don't care if you want to count the people who called, or don't count them. But once you change HOW you count them it interferes with what the numbers mean. BO is not stupid, and he knows what he is saying is a gross manipulation of the truth. His administration even admitted to it:

Deportations come mostly from border, DHS chief says - Washington Times

He also has stopped even deporting at the border for the most part. Lets not forget about the waves of people who streamed across the border in 2014, and are again coming now trying to get in before a Trump Presidency.

As far as "I was proven wrong" on Illegals filing their taxes. Talk about winning the battle and losing the war on that one. This shows open government corruption in the form of it setting up a system to openly break it's own laws, but also throwing in another party of criminal (the employer) to whom the government would have to have knowledge of their criminal activity in order to process the tax return. Which is just that... a return. All that is shown by me not knowing about the criminality of our government is that I have never had to participate in said criminality. In addition to that, Elvish pointed out facts instead of misleading information intended to manipulate the truth (like what you are doing). Everyone does pay sales tax. I don't dispute that, but not everyone pays federal or state income tax if their wages are in the lower 45%. That covers most illegals, unless like how he stipulated they have committed identity theft and falsified tax returns with fake papers. Not to mention the vast majority of these people are paid under the table, and the only ones who would file are the ones who would get a return.

The more shocking thing to this is that the US government is giving more tax money in the form of returns to low earning illegals than what the illegals contribute. That they have turned a blind eye to employers that they KNOW employ illegals.

Your ID nonsense is just that in regards to illegals. A driver's license is good enough for proof of residency and legal status in order to vote (in states that require ID). Somehow, magically, according to you is not a good enough form of ID anywhere else. Or if there is ID that an illegal gets (as in the case of California where they have taken it on themselves to start issuing driver's licenses to illegals) it is federal law (under the 911 commission) that that ID MUST show the person is not a legal resident.

So if what you mean by "Illegals can get IDs", you mean they can get ID that reflects their illegal status than you are correct. How that helps your argument at all baffles me. If anything all that ID would do is if the said illegal left California and was stopped by police they would be deported by showing that ID.

In addition to that Supreme Court precedence with the Arizona case, the court said that immigration was the sole resp. of the federal government. The BO administration has decided not to pursue cities or states that do not conform to federal law, and the court backed them up. If the Trump administration (or any administration) decided they do want to enforce it (to whatever degree) those licenses would be a big "Deport me" sign on each illegal. Not to mention getting those means they registered, which means we know who they are. I think it is rather stupid of them, because if the political winds change they just registered for their own deportation.

Mini2544, ASN, RN · Dec 31, 2016

Unpopular opinion...but I believe that if the patient is undocumented, especially if they are costing the exponentially high amount a hospital stay is, immediate deportation is necessary. They are contributing nothing. Yes, we need to be human and not be mean/angry to the person we are taking care of but as soon as we are made aware of undocumented status they should be made to leave the hospital/country. I say that as a daughter of an immigrant who grew up in a third world country as an American. This country is starting to look like that third world country, especially in areas with high concentrations of minorities. And situations like that cost us an unimaginable amount. In the nursing home I work at (border town) we have undocumented immigrants taking up beds. It's an extremely well ran, well staffed facility. Because the beds are being filled with non citizens, citizens are forced to go to crappy neglectful places.

I agree. There is a reason our country is in 20 trillion dollars of debt. We aren't a rich nation like most people think. We are actually 15th in the world. Its unpopular and people want to help everyone no matter the cost but the basics remain. If you're here illegally,

doing God knows what in some cases, you are breaking the law. I have a huge issue with people who are breaking our laws by being here and then on top of that, racking up

medical bills that they cant pay. There has to be consequences. It's a sad world we live in but we can't keep up what we have been doing. Something has to change. And if you have a huge issue with it than do some volunteer work to help all these illegal immigrants.

Ann_ · Dec 31, 2016

I agree. There is a reason our country is in 20 trillion dollars of debt. We aren't a rich nation like most people think. We are actually 15th in the world. Its unpopular and people want to help everyone no matter the cost but the basics remain. If you're here illegally,
doing God knows what in some cases, you are breaking the law. I have a huge issue with people who are breaking our laws by being here and then on top of that, racking up
medical bills that they cant pay. There has to be consequences. It's a sad world we live in but we can't keep up what we have been doing. Something has to change. And if you have a huge issue with it than do some volunteer work to help all these illegal immigrants.

You seem to have a huge issue with it, what will you be doing when patients come to you?

Mini2544, ASN, RN · Dec 31, 2016

Just verifying you read the same thing I wrote. No where did I say I won't treat an illegal immigrant patient. Which is exactly what I will do. However, our county has an issue that needs addressing. End of story

Ann_ · Dec 31, 2016

No,
What Obama did was change how the numbers were counted. Before people taken at the border and deported in a day or 2 were not counted. BO counted them. It would be like someone saying that the hospital has had more traffic than ever before because they started counting the people who called the hospital in addition to who actually got services there. I don't care if you want to count the people who called, or don't count them. But once you change HOW you count them it interferes with what the numbers mean. BO is not stupid, and he knows what he is saying is a gross manipulation of the truth. His administration even admitted to it:
Deportations come mostly from border, DHS chief says - Washington Times
He also has stopped even deporting at the border for the most part. Lets not forget about the waves of people who streamed across the border in 2014, and are again coming now trying to get in before a Trump Presidency.
As far as "I was proven wrong" on Illegals filing their taxes. Talk about winning the battle and losing the war on that one. This shows open government corruption in the form of it setting up a system to openly break it's own laws, but also throwing in another party of criminal (the employer) to whom the government would have to have knowledge of their criminal activity in order to process the tax return. Which is just that... a return. All that is shown by me not knowing about the criminality of our government is that I have never had to participate in said criminality. In addition to that, Elvish pointed out facts instead of misleading information intended to manipulate the truth (like what you are doing). Everyone does pay sales tax. I don't dispute that, but not everyone pays federal or state income tax if their wages are in the lower 45%. That covers most illegals, unless like how he stipulated they have committed identity theft and falsified tax returns with fake papers. Not to mention the vast majority of these people are paid under the table, and the only ones who would file are the ones who would get a return.
The more shocking thing to this is that the US government is giving more tax money in the form of returns to low earning illegals than what the illegals contribute. That they have turned a blind eye to employers that they KNOW employ illegals.
Your ID nonsense is just that in regards to illegals. A driver's license is good enough for proof of residency and legal status in order to vote (in states that require ID). Somehow, magically, according to you is not a good enough form of ID anywhere else. Or if there is ID that an illegal gets (as in the case of California where they have taken it on themselves to start issuing driver's licenses to illegals) it is federal law (under the 911 commission) that that ID MUST show the person is not a legal resident.
So if what you mean by "Illegals can get IDs", you mean they can get ID that reflects their illegal status than you are correct. How that helps your argument at all baffles me. If anything all that ID would do is if the said illegal left California and was stopped by police they would be deported by showing that ID.
In addition to that Supreme Court precedence with the Arizona case, the court said that immigration was the sole resp. of the federal government. The BO administration has decided not to pursue cities or states that do not conform to federal law, and the court backed them up. If the Trump administration (or any administration) decided they do want to enforce it (to whatever degree) those licenses would be a big "Deport me" sign on each illegal. Not to mention getting those means they registered, which means we know who they are. I think it is rather stupid of them, because if the political winds change they just registered for their own deportation.

Are you a nurse, or a paid Trump advocate (you love him, we get it!), now can you please get back on topic? With that said, have you ever taken care of any undocumented patients? How did you feel about them while they were in your care? Please tell me you did not passive aggressively treat them as though they didn't deserve care. Furthermore, I doubt anyone here is trying to win wars or battles simply trying to get you to understand that illegal immigrants do pay taxes, both my parents worked grossing about 65000-70000 a year together taxes came out of their check q pay period and to the best of my knowledge, we filed them every year at those tax places on shopping strips, or libraries, churches, etc. They do have LEGAL ID from DMV its difficult but not impossible to get (I had one for 6 years, before I applied for papers) Yes, I was once illegal and now I'm a Registered Nurse (GASP!), who knows we may work alongside each other one day :whistling: ! Also we do pay for healthcare, as children we didn't go to the doctor much (twice in my whole 18 years I remember) but when we did our dad made sure to have the cash on hand. A lot of us work really hard and try to stay under the radar, I will never understand why people seek to blame undocumented immigrants in majority for the perils of this countries healthcare system, when we represent a small small portion of this country.