Undocumented Patients

Zooey72 · Dec 31, 2016

a driver's license is not proof of legal status for immigration purposes. Otherwise we would not need passports to travel outside the country. When a police looks at my license he cannot tell how i got here. And that same police person would not be able to decipher what type of visa i may hold.
Please, please, please. If you have such strong and negative views of people, those views are obvious to the people you come in contact with. You should not be in a profession like nursing. It would be too stressful for you. I have seen nurses who held beliefs like yours and it showed even when they tried to hide it. The term health care disparities is real and most often is a result of attitudes like yours.

I have had jobs in the past where I have dealt with people whom I do not agree with, nor respect. My job was not to tell them my views, or to try to change theirs. I have always succeeded in any of these jobs because I have never let my personal feeling stop me from doing my job. Nursing is no different, unless you are telling me that you should not be a nurse because you could not care for someone who shot someone else. Or was dealing drugs to kids. Or a rapist. Regardless of my opinion on illegal immigration, I think if I can treat a child molester w/o them knowing how I feel illegal immigrants are not going to be an issue (i am not saying they are the same thing, I am saying all care is equal when they walk through the door).

As I said, I have a history degree and I know how to write an argument. What I have seen here is misinformed or uneducated statements. Or to the woman who is a nurse now who had been an illegal and wants to compare her life's anecdotal evidence to make a claim that is why we should not enforce immigration law. I will make a deal with you. I will not do "The Trump thing" and call every illegal a rapist, if you in turn do not use anecdotal evidence of your life as a case study to warrant not enforcing immigration law. It has been pointed out to me that the government has made a system to circumvent it''s own laws (which is bewildering to me, because whenever I hear the 'comprehensive immigration reform' people their claim is that we need to get them on the books so that they can pay taxes).

And as far as a driver's license is concerned. It is a fact that it is the standard way we use to identify people. In terms of immigration (again from the primary sources I have stated) an illegal can not obtain one that shows that they are here legally. If they have one that shows that they are here legally, than by definition either that person is here legally or the driver's license (or whatever ID they are using) is a forged one. I am unclear of what the argument is here. Is anyone here trying to say that an illegal can obtain ID that shows that they are here legally? My concern over this was tax fraud until it was pointed out to me that the government had set up a system to circumvent it's own laws; to which I conceded the point. The only thing I have to add to that is that paying taxes becomes voluntary if you have to ask to have a number to be given to you to do them. If taxes are voluntary, how many people regardless of immigration status are going to get them so that they give the gov. money that they don't have to?

I am going to stop here because this is not much of a "debate" or even a good argument. I have shown primary sources such as the president's own actions and court law to back how I feel. Most of what I have seen in return (with the exception of Elvish) are emotional responses and anecdotal evidence to support 'the other side'. I can not argue with that kind of Jerry Springer type of thing because it is all emotion based. When I point out facts (that again, are primary source based) it upsets people and my nursing skills are questioned in a personal attack.

I will say this though. I would think everyone here who became a nurse felt deeply about it and committed themselves to it. That is respectable. Passion is a good thing, but as you know REAL passion takes commitment.

If you don't know how to back up your argument (not just immigration) with primary sources, and rely completely on anecdotal evidence and emotion (much less, oh god - 'I heard on the news' and than do no follow up) than you do not feel passionately about your argument because you committed no time to it. It is the equivalent of someone coming up to you and saying "hey, I'm a nurse too" because they read something on WebMD.

Semper_Gumby · Dec 31, 2016

I feel like I am watching a debate on CNN with some of the ridiculous comments to your post.
I find it amusing that we are made out to be the bad people because we believe in our CURRENT immigration laws. Didn't someone tell you not to go into nursing because of your views? Typical liberal bigotry. They preach all this love and acceptance, except when it comes to those who disagree with them.
You aren't alone in your views. Dont let these people make you feel bad because of it.

I am hardly liberal. I am, however, a human being, and one who actively works to identify and eliminate areas of bigotry in my own belief system and life. People aren't telling zooey to reconsider healthcare because of her political views. They're saying that because of her obvious disdain for others (legal and not) and because those of us who work in healthcare already know that holding private disdain for others can easily come through in your care of them. Not always, but it's very possible.

It would be nice if there were a simple, streamlined process for people to come here who simply want a better life. But there's not. So young mothers cross a dangerous desert with their toddlers (actual story of someone I was privileged to meet) because they feel the risk is worth it to give their children a shot at growing up somewhere they won't live in poverty or in fear of being murdered by those who value money more than lives. It's an imperfect world we live in, and we all have to deal with the consequences.

Ann_ · Dec 31, 2016

You're more than welcome to pick a fight with someone else who doesn't share your opinion, but I'll pass.

Pick a fight? I didn't realize, asking someone what does "I voted" mean. Were fighting words unless well...

Ann_ · Dec 31, 2016

I have had jobs in the past where I have dealt with people whom I do not agree with, nor respect. My job was not to tell them my views, or to try to change theirs. I have always succeeded in any of these jobs because I have never let my personal feeling stop me from doing my job. Nursing is no different, unless you are telling me that you should not be a nurse because you could not care for someone who shot someone else. Or was dealing drugs to kids. Or a rapist. Regardless of my opinion on illegal immigration, I think if I can treat a child molester w/o them knowing how I feel illegal immigrants are not going to be an issue (i am not saying they are the same thing, I am saying all care is equal when they walk through the door).
As I said, I have a history degree and I know how to write an argument. What I have seen here is misinformed or uneducated statements. Or to the woman who is a nurse now who had been an illegal and wants to compare her life's anecdotal evidence to make a claim that is why we should not enforce immigration law. I will make a deal with you. I will not do "The Trump thing" and call every illegal a rapist, if you in turn do not use anecdotal evidence of your life as a case study to warrant not enforcing immigration law. It has been pointed out to me that the government has made a system to circumvent it''s own laws (which is bewildering to me, because whenever I hear the 'comprehensive immigration reform' people their claim is that we need to get them on the books so that they can pay taxes).
And as far as a driver's license is concerned. It is a fact that it is the standard way we use to identify people. In terms of immigration (again from the primary sources I have stated) an illegal can not obtain one that shows that they are here legally. If they have one that shows that they are here legally, than by definition either that person is here legally or the driver's license (or whatever ID they are using) is a forged one. I am unclear of what the argument is here. Is anyone here trying to say that an illegal can obtain ID that shows that they are here legally? My concern over this was tax fraud until it was pointed out to me that the government had set up a system to circumvent it's own laws; to which I conceded the point. The only thing I have to add to that is that paying taxes becomes voluntary if you have to ask to have a number to be given to you to do them. If taxes are voluntary, how many people regardless of immigration status are going to get them so that they give the gov. money that they don't have to?
I am going to stop here because this is not much of a "debate" or even a good argument. I have shown primary sources such as the president's own actions and court law to back how I feel. Most of what I have seen in return (with the exception of Elvish) are emotional responses and anecdotal evidence to support 'the other side'. I can not argue with that kind of Jerry Springer type of thing because it is all emotion based. When I point out facts (that again, are primary source based) it upsets people and my nursing skills are questioned in a personal attack.
I will say this though. I would think everyone here who became a nurse felt deeply about it and committed themselves to it. That is respectable. Passion is a good thing, but as you know REAL passion takes commitment.
If you don't know how to back up your argument (not just immigration) with primary sources, and rely completely on anecdotal evidence and emotion (much less, oh god - 'I heard on the news' and than do no follow up) than you do not feel passionately about your argument because you committed no time to it. It is the equivalent of someone coming up to you and saying "hey, I'm a nurse too" because they read something on WebMD.

If you don't know how to back up your argument (not just immigration) with primary sources, and rely completely on anecdotal evidence and emotion (much less, oh god - 'I heard on the news' and than do no follow up) than you do not feel passionately about your argument because you committed no time to it. It is the equivalent of someone coming up to you and saying "hey, I'm a nurse too" because they read something on WebMD.

Wait a second, you are reading what you want, and not what is actually there. You are allowing your intolerance of undocumented people to cloud your vision another reason why nursing (beside) may not be the best career choice for you. My life testimony is not saying one should not enforce immigration laws. It is saying the stereotypes that you have presented against illegal immigrants such as them not having ID obtained legally, paying for healthcare, or filing/paying taxes are not all correct. Please ask yourself how and why you miss that?

Zooey72 · Dec 31, 2016

Sorry, I just can't help it. You just threw out a bunch of generalizations on things you believe about poor migrants that do pay taxes and do supply their own healthcare w/o a shred of proof (as in a primary source) and than go on to criticize my arrogance about wanting people to use primary sources?

The only tax all illegals pay is sales tax. No one has a choice in that. The people who do the 'picking' that you describe either do not make enough to contribute or are completely paid under the table. I don't even need a primary source for that one, because if it were not true than those illegals would make over the 45% required to contribute more than they take; in which case you can rest assured Americans would do those jobs (not to mention somehow you think that illegal field hands are offered comprehensive medical benefits that you give no source for).

The blind altruism is stunning to me. As you point out these people are low skilled, and being low skilled having 12 million of them here depresses American low skilled labor. That is just Econ101. While this probably does not bother you I bet it would if all of a sudden 12 million illegal nurses entered the country (currently only 3 million nurses nationwide) and the corresponding salary of nurses dropped 75%.

It would not bother you to see the median nursing income in this country drop from 68k to 17k?

And I have never bought "doing work Americans refuse to do". As all of you know if you pay someone enough they will stick a finger up someone else's but (nursing).

You are right when you say money is being infused into the economy by illegal immigration. It just isn't our economy.

Forbes Welcome

I restate, instead of emotion use facts please.

Longleggedstar · Dec 31, 2016

Are you a nurse, or a paid Trump advocate (you love him, we get it!), now can you please get back on topic? With that said, have you ever taken care of any undocumented patients? How did you feel about them while they were in your care? Please tell me you did not passive aggressively treat them as though they didn't deserve care. Furthermore, I doubt anyone here is trying to win wars or battles simply trying to get you to understand that illegal immigrants do pay taxes, both my parents worked grossing about 65000-70000 a year together taxes came out of their check q pay period and to the best of my knowledge, we filed them every year at those tax places on shopping strips, or libraries, churches, etc. They do have LEGAL ID from DMV its difficult but not impossible to get (I had one for 6 years, before I applied for papers) Yes, I was once illegal and now I'm a Registered Nurse (GASP!), who knows we may work alongside each other one day ! Also we do pay for healthcare, as children we didn't go to the doctor much (twice in my whole 18 years I remember) but when we did our dad made sure to have the cash on hand. A lot of us work really hard and try to stay under the radar, I will never understand why people seek to blame undocumented immigrants in majority for the perils of this countries healthcare system, when we represent a small small portion of this country.

Let this debate go sis, the truth is the user you are chatting with is not a nurse. You are asking him to see your stance on this issue from a level and status in which he has not attained. He is wanting you to look at nursing as fact vs fiction black vs white, etc. And every nurse knows nursing is one of the most "grayish" professions. His obvious disdain and stereotyping of illegal immigrants in relation to receiving patient care in our healthcare system at this point is a non-factor as no patients will be subjected to his care at this time. Just find peace in that.

Editorial Team / Admin · Dec 31, 2016

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