Undocumented Patients

Ann_ · Dec 31, 2016

Just verifying you read the same thing I wrote. No where did I say I won't treat an illegal immigrant patient. Which is exactly what I will do. However, our county has an issue that needs addressing. End of story

Let me rephrase the question, you asked that others address the issue by volunteering to help illegal immigrants, what will you be doing to address the issue?

Skippingtowork · Dec 31, 2016

no,
what obama did was change how the numbers were counted. Before people taken at the border and deported in a day or 2 were not counted. Bo counted them. It would be like someone saying that the hospital has had more traffic than ever before because they started counting the people who called the hospital in addition to who actually got services there. I don't care if you want to count the people who called, or don't count them. But once you change how you count them it interferes with what the numbers mean. Bo is not stupid, and he knows what he is saying is a gross manipulation of the truth. His administration even admitted to it:
deportations come mostly from border, dhs chief says - washington times
he also has stopped even deporting at the border for the most part. Lets not forget about the waves of people who streamed across the border in 2014, and are again coming now trying to get in before a trump presidency.
As far as "i was proven wrong" on illegals filing their taxes. Talk about winning the battle and losing the war on that one. This shows open government corruption in the form of it setting up a system to openly break it's own laws, but also throwing in another party of criminal (the employer) to whom the government would have to have knowledge of their criminal activity in order to process the tax return. Which is just that... A return. All that is shown by me not knowing about the criminality of our government is that i have never had to participate in said criminality. In addition to that, elvish pointed out facts instead of misleading information intended to manipulate the truth (like what you are doing). Everyone does pay sales tax. I don't dispute that, but not everyone pays federal or state income tax if their wages are in the lower 45%. That covers most illegals, unless like how he stipulated they have committed identity theft and falsified tax returns with fake papers. Not to mention the vast majority of these people are paid under the table, and the only ones who would file are the ones who would get a return.
The more shocking thing to this is that the us government is giving more tax money in the form of returns to low earning illegals than what the illegals contribute. That they have turned a blind eye to employers that they know employ illegals.
Your id nonsense is just that in regards to illegals. A driver's license is good enough for proof of residency and legal status in order to vote (in states that require id). Somehow, magically, according to you is not a good enough form of id anywhere else. Or if there is id that an illegal gets (as in the case of california where they have taken it on themselves to start issuing driver's licenses to illegals) it is federal law (under the 911 commission) that that id must show the person is not a legal resident.
So if what you mean by "illegals can get ids", you mean they can get id that reflects their illegal status than you are correct. How that helps your argument at all baffles me. If anything all that id would do is if the said illegal left california and was stopped by police they would be deported by showing that id.
In addition to that supreme court precedence with the arizona case, the court said that immigration was the sole resp. Of the federal government. The bo administration has decided not to pursue cities or states that do not conform to federal law, and the court backed them up. If the trump administration (or any administration) decided they do want to enforce it (to whatever degree) those licenses would be a big "deport me" sign on each illegal. Not to mention getting those means they registered, which means we know who they are. I think it is rather stupid of them, because if the political winds change they just registered for their own deportation.

a driver's license is not proof of legal status for immigration purposes. Otherwise we would not need passports to travel outside the country. When a police looks at my license he cannot tell how i got here. And that same police person would not be able to decipher what type of visa i may hold.

Please, please, please. If you have such strong and negative views of people, those views are obvious to the people you come in contact with. You should not be in a profession like nursing. It would be too stressful for you. I have seen nurses who held beliefs like yours and it showed even when they tried to hide it. The term health care disparities is real and most often is a result of attitudes like yours.

Mini2544, ASN, RN · Dec 31, 2016

Let me rephrase the question, you asked that others address the issue by volunteering to help illegal immigrants, what will you be doing to address the issue?

I voted.

Ann_ · Dec 31, 2016

I voted.

What does that mean missarahp83?

Ann_ · Dec 31, 2016

a driver's license is not proof of legal status for immigration purposes. Otherwise we would not need passports to travel outside the country. When a police looks at my license he cannot tell how i got here. And that same police person would not be able to decipher what type of visa i may hold.
Please, please, please. If you have such strong and negative views of people, those views are obvious to the people you come in contact with. You should not be in a profession like nursing. It would be too stressful for you. I have seen nurses who held beliefs like yours and it showed even when they tried to hide it. The term health care disparities is real and most often is a result of attitudes like yours.

Lol. ID is most definitely not proof of legal status...Why would he/she even imply that?

Also, I agree, I usually would not discourage a person from nursing, but I have to suggest that maybe a desk job might work better for that individual.

Mini2544, ASN, RN · Dec 31, 2016

What does that mean missarahp83?

You're more than welcome to pick a fight with someone else who doesn't share your opinion, but I'll pass.

Semper_Gumby · Dec 31, 2016

But you're right. ID is meaningless! Your argument is beyond absurd... And TIP: With the exception of a handful of states you can not get a driver's license w/o being a citizen. Soooo, if you can't get a driver's license if you are illegal, and driver's licenses are held by almost everyone in the adult population.... I'll let you connect the dots. And to the people who do not have driver's licenses for whatever reason, to function in this country (legally) you must have some way of identifying yourself. Or here is an easy one, check the social security number. Every single person in this country has one (that is here legally). How again do you file taxes w/o a SS#? And I do not have the numbers, but I am pretty sure most illegals do not have health insurance by nature of their employers not supplying it (since the employer is doing something illegal by hiring them). So ya, they probably don't have it for the most part.

You don't have to be a citizen to get a driver's license. Granted, you probably have to be here legally (though I'm sure it's possible to get one without being here legally), but I'm related by marriage to someone who came here as a teenager to escape conflict in his native country and has worked and driven for many years, legally. Bought a home with a mortgage and remodeled it too, all without being a citizen (because let me tell ya, trying to get legal citizenship is a pain in the neck and there are a ridiculous number of hoops to jump through, and just when you've jumped through them all, suddenly there's more!).

All these terrible illegals you're so upset about spending all our tax money with their healthcare...they're the ones coming and working the farms that provide the produce that you no doubt buy from your local grocery store. American citizens don't often want to do that backbreaking labor, so migrant workers come here (legally or not) and pick all those peaches and strawberries so you can enjoy them. They play a vital role in the economy of the southern states and probably others as well. They pay taxes, many pay for their own healthcare, and they buy things, infusing millions, if not billions, into the U.S. economy. I recognize the frustration from feeling like they are taking services away from U.S. citizens sometimes, but that is not always, or even often, the case.

Here is where having a degree in history helps. There are things called "primary sources". I stated an Arizona law and the Supreme Court as well what the president's policy change on what a "deportation" actually is. Those are undisputed. Arizona SB 17 - Wikipedia
...
And if you are helping illegals with their tax returns what social security # are you using? Because if you are using any you are committing a felony. Again, FACT! Whether the federal government decides to pursue your criminal act (if indeed you are knowingly preparing their papers with a false SS#) is up to their discretion, but it makes it no less a crime.
And if you have 'helped them with their taxes', as you claim to have you know as well as I do that almost 1/2 of the country does not pay federal income tax. If you are helping them file it is because they do not reach the income level to where they contribute, and hence they take more than they give. So you are withholding information you know not to be true when you state "they don't want to break another law" would not be their motivation. If they are filing they are getting a check, because if you are here illegally I can pretty much guarantee you that you do not make enough money for you to contribute more than you take. Our tax structure does not work that way and you (should) know that.
Forbes Welcome
...
Look up the term "primary source" as well.

Apparently you are the first person in the world with a previous degree who decided to become a nurse. Bravo! :rolleyes: You seem to be unaware that many nurses had other careers and degrees, even, before deciding to become a nurse (including me). Many degrees require the ability to do research using primary sources and while I'll concede that a history degree might require more than some others, it is hardly the only degree in which research is done. Some degrees require you to learn how to design studies (psych) or how to interpret studies (sciences...including nursing), etc. Your arrogance, as someone barely dipping their toes into the waters of healthcare, is...shall we say, a bit unwarranted? You'd do well to tone down the attitude and realize that everyone, even people with whom you disagree, has something to bring to the table.

As a side note, when I worked low-wage jobs (would you like fries with that? :woot: ), I always paid taxes out of my check. Yeah, I generally got the money back (and then some, sometimes), but it was paid in to begin with. If you'd to read some of the other posts in this thread, you'd have learned that the tax dollars of undocumented workers are infusing a lot of money into social security, etc. and helping keep those programs afloat...so obviously they aren't all taking more than they are putting in (and also that the IRS does not report who's paying taxes with what ID numbers to other government agencies).

I sincerely hope you relax your combative attitude towards others because once you're working in healthcare, it isn't going to serve you well in most situations. A little humility goes a long way.

Good luck.

Mini2544, ASN, RN · Dec 31, 2016

I didn't miss it because it isn't true. BO changed the way that the numbers are counted (kind of like how he claims we almost have full employment despite the fact that worker participation is at an all time high). As far as my education goes, I have a degree in history, so I could do w/o the being lectured by someone who I bet does not.
I could care less where an illegal immigrant comes from. There are over 40k Irish in the New York city area and they are breaking the law just as much as someone who comes here south of the border. You are injecting race, not I. And how would you screen? Oh I don't know, I need to have I.D. to buy a beer I don't think it is too much to ask someone for identification for receiving thousands of dollars of tax payer/insurance money. There is no "trigger" for what prompts someone to show ID... everyone should show I.D. And as far as non-US citizens go, I thought we were talking about people who are here illegally? But if you want to talk about people with Visas or students that fine. Those programs are not set up to help those people exclusively, we are supposed to benefit from them being here as well. No one has a right to come here, immigration is supposed to benefit this country and it is a nice side note if the individual who comes here benefits as well.
And who Donald Trump has married is of no concern to me. Is his wife here legally? I would think so, so whatever strawman argument you are trying to make stops right there. And as far as what he is going to do, I don't think Trump knows what he is going to do. I am basing my statements off of what he has said.
NO ONE carries proof of legal status in this country when they go to the hospital (that is ridiculous, the VAST majority of people over 16 have a driver's license). While ID is not required (nor should it be) everyone does have a SS#. If someone shows up to a hospital and they have no way to identify themselves that is suspicious all on its own. They can't they tell you where they live? They can't tell you a name? They can't tell you where they went to school? Now if someone has had a stroke in a mall or some other kind of thing there are ways to find out who that person is so that you can contact their family. You are trying to make some irrational argument that 'it can't be done' when it clearly can be. You have a political slant on this, so you don't want it to be done. There is a difference.
The person who is helping illegals with their taxes... how does that work exactly? Whose SS# do you use to help them in their fraud? If you fill in the blank where the SS should go with "I am illegal" than the government is not doing their job because they just got a tax return from someone who has admitted to a crime. I have no doubt what you are saying is true, but that does not make it legal just because the federal government is not enforcing the law.
And the poster who does a lot of charity work and all that. That's fine, and your choice. I would never tell someone how to spend their money/time as long as what they were doing is legal. All I ask is the same thing, and saying "how dare you" because I don't want my tax money being spent on people here illegally is my perspective.
Reporting someone to ICE as being the same thing as dialing 911 for a missed food order. Wow that's a stretch. Leaving aside the illegals who may be committing tax fraud by using fake social security numbers, or just paying taxes and telling the gov "I am illegal", how do you figure that not putting cheese on my Whopper is the same thing as violating our borders, not paying taxes, and breaking our laws?
And your 12th grade comment. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about and show your ignorance proudly. No one was talking about legal immigrants, or people who have come here legally to work. You have no way of answering the question "what about the illegals", so you change the question to one that was not asked.
Lastly, no you don't turn anyone away at a hospital. I thought my comment on Satan/Christ made that obvious. You I.D. the person and let whatever steps after that take care of itself
Oh, and to the "BO has deported more people" nonsense:
High deportation figures are misleading - LA Times

I feel like I am watching a debate on CNN with some of the ridiculous comments to your post.

I find it amusing that we are made out to be the bad people because we believe in our CURRENT immigration laws. Didn't someone tell you not to go into nursing because of your views? Typical liberal bigotry. They preach all this love and acceptance, except when it comes to those who disagree with them.

You aren't alone in your views. Dont let these people make you feel bad because of it.

Zooey72 · Dec 31, 2016

a driver's license is not proof of legal status for immigration purposes. Otherwise we would not need passports to travel outside the country. When a police looks at my license he cannot tell how i got here. And that same police person would not be able to decipher what type of visa i may hold.
Please, please, please. If you have such strong and negative views of people, those views are obvious to the people you come in contact with. You should not be in a profession like nursing. It would be too stressful for you. I have seen nurses who held beliefs like yours and it showed even when they tried to hide it. The term health care disparities is real and most often is a result of attitudes like yours.

I have had jobs in the past where I have dealt with people whom I do not agree with, nor respect. My job was not to tell them my views, or to try to change theirs. I have always succeeded in any of these jobs because I have never let my personal feeling stop me from doing my job. Nursing is no different, unless you are telling me that you should not be a nurse because you could not care for someone who shot someone else. Or was dealing drugs to kids. Or a rapist. Regardless of my opinion on illegal immigration, I think if I can treat a child molester w/o them knowing how I feel illegal immigrants are not going to be an issue (i am not saying they are the same thing, I am saying all care is equal when they walk through the door).

As I said, I have a history degree and I know how to write an argument. What I have seen here is misinformed or uneducated statements. Or to the woman who is a nurse now who had been an illegal and wants to compare her life's anecdotal evidence to make a claim that is why we should not enforce immigration law. I will make a deal with you. I will not do "The Trump thing" and call every illegal a rapist, if you in turn do not use anecdotal evidence of your life as a case study to warrant not enforcing immigration law. It has been pointed out to me that the government has made a system to circumvent it''s own laws (which is bewildering to me, because whenever I hear the 'comprehensive immigration reform' people their claim is that we need to get them on the books so that they can pay taxes).

And as far as a driver's license is concerned. It is a fact that it is the standard way we use to identify people. In terms of immigration (again from the primary sources I have stated) an illegal can not obtain one that shows that they are here legally. If they have one that shows that they are here legally, than by definition either that person is here legally or the driver's license (or whatever ID they are using) is a forged one. I am unclear of what the argument is here. Is anyone here trying to say that an illegal can obtain ID that shows that they are here legally? My concern over this was tax fraud until it was pointed out to me that the government had set up a system to circumvent it's own laws; to which I conceded the point. The only thing I have to add to that is that paying taxes becomes voluntary if you have to ask to have a number to be given to you to do them. If taxes are voluntary, how many people regardless of immigration status are going to get them so that they give the gov. money that they don't have to?

I am going to stop here because this is not much of a "debate" or even a good argument. I have shown primary sources such as the president's own actions and court law to back how I feel. Most of what I have seen in return (with the exception of Elvish) are emotional responses and anecdotal evidence to support 'the other side'. I can not argue with that kind of Jerry Springer type of thing because it is all emotion based. When I point out facts (that again, are primary source based) it upsets people and my nursing skills are questioned in a personal attack.

I will say this though. I would think everyone here who became a nurse felt deeply about it and committed themselves to it. That is respectable. Passion is a good thing, but as you know REAL passion takes commitment.

If you don't know how to back up your argument (not just immigration) with primary sources, and rely completely on anecdotal evidence and emotion (much less, oh god - 'I heard on the news' and than do no follow up) than you do not feel passionately about your argument because you committed no time to it. It is the equivalent of someone coming up to you and saying "hey, I'm a nurse too" because they read something on WebMD.

Semper_Gumby · Dec 31, 2016

I feel like I am watching a debate on CNN with some of the ridiculous comments to your post.
I find it amusing that we are made out to be the bad people because we believe in our CURRENT immigration laws. Didn't someone tell you not to go into nursing because of your views? Typical liberal bigotry. They preach all this love and acceptance, except when it comes to those who disagree with them.
You aren't alone in your views. Dont let these people make you feel bad because of it.

I am hardly liberal. I am, however, a human being, and one who actively works to identify and eliminate areas of bigotry in my own belief system and life. People aren't telling zooey to reconsider healthcare because of her political views. They're saying that because of her obvious disdain for others (legal and not) and because those of us who work in healthcare already know that holding private disdain for others can easily come through in your care of them. Not always, but it's very possible.

It would be nice if there were a simple, streamlined process for people to come here who simply want a better life. But there's not. So young mothers cross a dangerous desert with their toddlers (actual story of someone I was privileged to meet) because they feel the risk is worth it to give their children a shot at growing up somewhere they won't live in poverty or in fear of being murdered by those who value money more than lives. It's an imperfect world we live in, and we all have to deal with the consequences.

Ann_ · Dec 31, 2016

You're more than welcome to pick a fight with someone else who doesn't share your opinion, but I'll pass.

Pick a fight? I didn't realize, asking someone what does "I voted" mean. Were fighting words unless well...

Ann_ · Dec 31, 2016

I have had jobs in the past where I have dealt with people whom I do not agree with, nor respect. My job was not to tell them my views, or to try to change theirs. I have always succeeded in any of these jobs because I have never let my personal feeling stop me from doing my job. Nursing is no different, unless you are telling me that you should not be a nurse because you could not care for someone who shot someone else. Or was dealing drugs to kids. Or a rapist. Regardless of my opinion on illegal immigration, I think if I can treat a child molester w/o them knowing how I feel illegal immigrants are not going to be an issue (i am not saying they are the same thing, I am saying all care is equal when they walk through the door).
As I said, I have a history degree and I know how to write an argument. What I have seen here is misinformed or uneducated statements. Or to the woman who is a nurse now who had been an illegal and wants to compare her life's anecdotal evidence to make a claim that is why we should not enforce immigration law. I will make a deal with you. I will not do "The Trump thing" and call every illegal a rapist, if you in turn do not use anecdotal evidence of your life as a case study to warrant not enforcing immigration law. It has been pointed out to me that the government has made a system to circumvent it''s own laws (which is bewildering to me, because whenever I hear the 'comprehensive immigration reform' people their claim is that we need to get them on the books so that they can pay taxes).
And as far as a driver's license is concerned. It is a fact that it is the standard way we use to identify people. In terms of immigration (again from the primary sources I have stated) an illegal can not obtain one that shows that they are here legally. If they have one that shows that they are here legally, than by definition either that person is here legally or the driver's license (or whatever ID they are using) is a forged one. I am unclear of what the argument is here. Is anyone here trying to say that an illegal can obtain ID that shows that they are here legally? My concern over this was tax fraud until it was pointed out to me that the government had set up a system to circumvent it's own laws; to which I conceded the point. The only thing I have to add to that is that paying taxes becomes voluntary if you have to ask to have a number to be given to you to do them. If taxes are voluntary, how many people regardless of immigration status are going to get them so that they give the gov. money that they don't have to?
I am going to stop here because this is not much of a "debate" or even a good argument. I have shown primary sources such as the president's own actions and court law to back how I feel. Most of what I have seen in return (with the exception of Elvish) are emotional responses and anecdotal evidence to support 'the other side'. I can not argue with that kind of Jerry Springer type of thing because it is all emotion based. When I point out facts (that again, are primary source based) it upsets people and my nursing skills are questioned in a personal attack.
I will say this though. I would think everyone here who became a nurse felt deeply about it and committed themselves to it. That is respectable. Passion is a good thing, but as you know REAL passion takes commitment.
If you don't know how to back up your argument (not just immigration) with primary sources, and rely completely on anecdotal evidence and emotion (much less, oh god - 'I heard on the news' and than do no follow up) than you do not feel passionately about your argument because you committed no time to it. It is the equivalent of someone coming up to you and saying "hey, I'm a nurse too" because they read something on WebMD.

If you don't know how to back up your argument (not just immigration) with primary sources, and rely completely on anecdotal evidence and emotion (much less, oh god - 'I heard on the news' and than do no follow up) than you do not feel passionately about your argument because you committed no time to it. It is the equivalent of someone coming up to you and saying "hey, I'm a nurse too" because they read something on WebMD.

Wait a second, you are reading what you want, and not what is actually there. You are allowing your intolerance of undocumented people to cloud your vision another reason why nursing (beside) may not be the best career choice for you. My life testimony is not saying one should not enforce immigration laws. It is saying the stereotypes that you have presented against illegal immigrants such as them not having ID obtained legally, paying for healthcare, or filing/paying taxes are not all correct. Please ask yourself how and why you miss that?