Trump's 'religious conscience'

BeenThere2012, ASN, RN · Jun 17, 2019

To clarify my previous questions....

i understand it was meant to protect our rights to practice any religion without interference from government, but then shouldn’t the reverse be true? That...government should not make laws that are rooted in religious principles? It seems wonky to me that Trump would be involved in this law...

Lane Therrell FNP, MSN, RN, NP · Jun 17, 2019

On 6/17/2019 at 5:40 AM, hherrn said:
So, how about a simple, nurse to nurse question here:
If my interpretation of Christianity tells me I should not care for a transgender patient, should I be able to refuse that care?

Theoretically, for those of us who respect and advocate for free will and the preservation of individual liberty, the answer would be yes. But if you’re working actively as a nurse and being true to your profession, refusing care is not an option. So then the answer is no.

There is SO much more to this question than a yes-no answer could ever hope to capture.

Posing the question the way you did oversimplifies a complex issue that deserves to retain its complexity. When I’m teaching classes for advanced practice nurses on ethics, we talk about how our ethical, legal, moral, and religious principles are related, and ideally support each other, but all too often they are not the same. We talk about what to do when conflicts arise among these principles. And we acknowledge that sometimes questions come up in work and life that actually have no answers.

In cases where there’s an ethical-religious conflict of any kind, we do the best we can. When you’re at work in your nursing role part of doing your best involves upholding the ethical and professional duties of nursing. The transgender patient is in your care. Would refusing care cause harm to the transgender patient? For me personally, nothing else matters in the moment except providing the best care I can to the person who’s in front of me. I can pray for forgiveness later.

Doing your best gracefully in each and every moment begins with deep introspection and self-reflection. In other words, you’ve already thought about what you might do in xyz situation ahead of time. Deep self-reflection on topics like this will help you choose a work environment where ethical-religious conflict inducing situations are least likely to occur. Meanwhile, when they show up, you’re ready.

BeenThere2012, ASN, RN · Jun 17, 2019

55 minutes ago, Lane Therrell FNP, MSN, RN said:
Theoretically, for those of us who respect and advocate for free will and the preservation of individual liberty, the answer would be yes. But if you’re working actively as a nurse and being true to your profession, refusing care is not an option. So then the answer is no.
There is SO much more to this question than a yes-no answer could ever hope to capture.
Posing the question the way you did oversimplifies a complex issue that deserves to retain its complexity. When I’m teaching classes for advanced practice nurses on ethics, we talk about how our ethical, legal, moral, and religious principles are related, and ideally support each other, but all too often they are not the same. We talk about what to do when conflicts arise among these principles. And we acknowledge that sometimes questions come up in work and life that actually have no answers.
In cases where there’s an ethical-religious conflict of any kind, we do the best we can. When you’re at work in your nursing role part of doing your best involves upholding the ethical and professional duties of nursing. The transgender patient is in your care. Would refusing care cause harm to the transgender patient? For me personally, nothing else matters in the moment except providing the best care I can to the person who’s in front of me. I can pray for forgiveness later.
Doing your best gracefully in each and every moment begins with deep introspection and self-reflection. In other words, you’ve already thought about what you might do in xyz situation ahead of time. Deep self-reflection on topics like this will help you choose a work environment where ethical-religious conflict inducing situations are least likely to occur. Meanwhile, when they show up, you’re ready.

Excellent response! Obviously, since you teach this topic you have given much thought on this as have I over many years of practice. I have never considered NOT providing care to a patient, but I thank you for the guidance on how to prepare for those who have not figured out yet what to do in this situation.

allnurses Guide · Jun 17, 2019

As a Christian, I will not participate in actively ending the life of a viable fetus. I will care for, and extend empathy/sympathy/etc. for the woman who is going through that, if she arrives in my ER bleeding or having any complications.

That said, I will care for anyone who comes into my area as a patient. As said before, Jesus ministered to everyone, focus here on the lepers who were the social outcasts of the society, marginalized much the same as our Aids patients of today. My daughter reminded me of a story I told her during the AIDs crisis, when so many young men were on my med-surg unit dying of AIDs & AIDs dementia. One man started crying as I bed bathed him, saying it was the first time anyone had actually touched him in months. Anyone who would neglect that patient! not a Christian the way I see it.

Lane Therrell FNP, MSN, RN, NP · Jun 17, 2019

3 hours ago, BeenThere2012 said:
I have been wondering what happened to separation of church and state? Doesn’t this apply here? Or was it meant for something else? Can anyone comment?

Your question is probably best answered by a Constitutional Law scholar, which I am not. But I think you’re raising an important point that we’d all do well to ponder. The constitutional concept of separation of church and state as I understand it specifies that the US government cannot set up a “national religion” of which all citizens must be a member, nor may it require anyone holding public office to be part of a certain religion. It helps to understand the context for why this was important when the US Constitution was being written: In those days Britain was requiring everyone to be part of the Church of England. Freedom to practice the religion of one’s choosing was a BIG factor leading up to the American Revolution.

And as a side note, it’s important to remember that one of the hallmarks of the British monarchy at that time in history was the idea of the divine right of kings—which meant that the monarch was not subject to earthly authority. In other words, the king was above the law. This was offensive to many, and more than problematic over time, as you can imagine. While it’s an idea that has somewhat faded with time, it was truly fight-worthy in its day, and this is part of why the founders of the US made such an effort to infuse the “In God We Trust” ideal into the new republic… to demonstrate that the new nation would NEVER place its governmental authority in any one individual human being. Our governmental authority comes from the rule of law, and because laws are made by human beings, ultimately we must trust in a higher power when the laws are insufficient.

Understandably, this has become confusing over time because if we have separation of church and state, then why do we have “In God We Trust” on our currency, and say “one nation under God” in our pledge of allegiance, etc, etc, etc. It all goes back to historical context: The US founders were being very wise to set up a nation where the nation's moral compass is guided by something outside and bigger than any one individual human being… The rule of law as opposed to the rule of any one individual (or group of individuals) is extremely important. And we must never forget it.

Incidentally, I think this may be part of the reason why there's so much political hysteria going on right now, because our situation is bumping up against all this and testing it mightily.

Guest219794 · Jun 18, 2019

On 6/17/2019 at 3:05 PM, Lane Therrell FNP, MSN, RN said:
Theoretically, for those of us who respect and advocate for free will and the preservation of individual liberty, the answer would be yes. But if you’re working actively as a nurse and being true to your profession, refusing care is not an option. So then the answer is no.
There is SO much more to this question than a yes-no answer could ever hope to capture.
Posing the question the way you did oversimplifies a complex issue that deserves to retain its complexity. When I’m teaching classes for advanced practice nurses on ethics, we talk about how our ethical, legal, moral, and religious principles are related, and ideally support each other, but all too often they are not the same. We talk about what to do when conflicts arise among these principles. And we acknowledge that sometimes questions come up in work and life that actually have no answers.
In cases where there’s an ethical-religious conflict of any kind, we do the best we can. When you’re at work in your nursing role part of doing your best involves upholding the ethical and professional duties of nursing. The transgender patient is in your care. Would refusing care cause harm to the transgender patient? For me personally, nothing else matters in the moment except providing the best care I can to the person who’s in front of me. I can pray for forgiveness later.
Doing your best gracefully in each and every moment begins with deep introspection and self-reflection. In other words, you’ve already thought about what you might do in xyz situation ahead of time. Deep self-reflection on topics like this will help you choose a work environment where ethical-religious conflict inducing situations are least likely to occur. Meanwhile, when they show up, you’re ready.

Lane-

I appreciate your well conceived and well written response, and disagree with part of it.

"Posing the question the way you did oversimplifies a complex issue that deserves to retain its complexity"

I would say posing the question the way I did simplifies a complex issue despite its complexity.

This rule makes no exemptions for emergencies. I am the only RN in a small ER. My interpretation, as bizarre as it is, of Jesus's teaching is that I should not care for for a woman suffering from the complications of an abortion. Or a post surgical gender reassignment. Or a same sex couple. or whatever.

I am deliberately asking Dancrn a simple question in the context of a complex issue.

Do I have a right to refuse care to those who violate my conscious rights?

It is a deliberately simple question. Dancrn?

Horseshoe, BSN, RN · Jun 18, 2019

Could someone refer me to the passages in the Bible that say that being transgender is a sin and that Christians should not have anything to do with them?

CamMc · Jun 18, 2019

On 6/17/2019 at 10:09 PM, hherrn said:
Lane-
I appreciate your well conceived and well written response, and disagree with part of it.
"Posing the question the way you did oversimplifies a complex issue that deserves to retain its complexity"
I would say posing the question the way I did simplifies a complex issue despite its complexity.
This rule makes no exemptions for emergencies. I am the only RN in a small ER. My interpretation, as bizarre as it is, of Jesus's teaching is that I should not care for for a woman suffering from the complications of an abortion. Or a post surgical gender reassignment. Or a same sex couple. or whatever.

So then if, I, a transgender male who has had top surgery came in because I was in a car accident in your small town where you are the only RN and I sustained life-threatening injuries that had nothing to do with my genitals, would you not treat me? What if a woman who had breast cancer and had the same surgery and chose not to have reconstructive surgery and came in with the same injury would you then chose her life to save? This post was started because THIS is the reality that I (and so many others) could lose our lives because of someone's belief in some rules written over 2000 years ago? Your god would rather you let someone whose personal situation you don't agree with, die rather than save a life when you have the power to do so?

Guest219794 · Jun 18, 2019

51 minutes ago, CamMc said:
So then if, I, a transgender male who has had top surgery came in because I was in a car accident in your small town where you are the only RN and I sustained life-threatening injuries that had nothing to do with my genitals, would you not treat me? What if a woman who had breast cancer and had the same surgery and chose not to have reconstructive surgery and came in with the same injury would you then chose her life to save? This post was started because THIS is the reality that I (and so many others) could lose our lives because of someone's belief in some rules written over 2000 years ago? Your god would rather you let someone whose personal situation you don't agree with, die rather than save a life when you have the power to do so?

Would I treat you? Of course I would. I am a nurse and a decent human being, and your status as transgender matters to me only in how it affects your care, same as any other medical HX, If you were a murdering, racist, wife beating pedophile I would still treat you to the best of my ability despite my sincere hope that you get hit by a truck an your way to the car after discharge.

From my perspective, anybody who claims to be a nurse and believes that their "conscious" outweighs their obligations as a nurse should be allowed to retain their conscious, but required to surrender their license.

But that's me.

My question was to Dancrn. Do I have the right to refuse to care for Cam?

I am the only one on in the ER, and Cam has a complication from what I believe to be a sinful operation.

CamMc · Jun 18, 2019

11 minutes ago, hherrn said:
Would I treat you? Of course I would. I am a nurse and a decent human being, and your status as transgender matters to me only in how it affects your care, same as any other medical HX, If you were a murdering, racist, wife beating pedophile I would still treat you to the best of my ability despite my sincere hope that you get hit by a truck an your way to the car after discharge.
From my perspective, anybody who claims to be a nurse and believes that their "conscious" outweighs their obligations as a nurse should be allowed to retain their conscious, but required to surrender their license.
But that's me.
My question was to Dancrn. Do I have the right to refuse to care for Cam?
I am the only one on in the ER, and Cam has a complication from what I believe to be a sinful operation.

I am glad that is what you understand, that we can't let our beliefs interfere with our jobs. I'm by no means telling anyone to give up their beliefs (haters gonna hate), but I'm also saying if you can't look past your beliefs to do your job, then anyone (not you specifically) should re-evaluate their job and/or beliefs. To be fair you're changing the hypothetical situation, a complication from a sinful operation is different than someone being turned away for basic medical care. And from the private messages that dancrn has been sending me, being very preoccupied with my genitals, he/she thinks I'm delusional and a freak, so I doubt they would treat me in particular.

I beg someone to tell me just how me being transgender is a sin? If it matters I'm asexual so I'm not engaging in any homosexual intercourse whether you go by my genitals or my gender. And for me changing my gender is the same as someone using glasses to correct vision impairment or someone who is hard of hearing using a hearing aid. My male brain got put in a female body, the solution is making that identifiable on the outside so everyone else can adjust their eyes to what I already know. I really mean no disrespect, I just don't understand how who I am is wrong?

Lane Therrell FNP, MSN, RN, NP · Jun 18, 2019

Do you remember those bracelets that were so popular a few years back? WWJD? What Would Jesus Do? Maybe it's time for this question to get popular again. I feel like it might be helpful for any nurse who professes to be a Christian and comes upon one of these "treat or not" dilemmas, to ask, What Would Jesus Do? In some of my favorite Bible stories, Jesus was basically the ultimate street-nurse, out there on the front lines, healing society's most underserved minority populations, showing us how it's done. As far as I know He never refused to heal anyone. So, if you're a Christian, and you're truly walking in Christ's footsteps and acting as Jesus would, then you would never refuse to treat. End of dilemma.

Lane Therrell FNP, MSN, RN, NP · Jun 18, 2019

20 minutes ago, CamMc said:
I am glad that is what you understand, that we can't let our beliefs interfere with our jobs.
I just don't understand how who I am is wrong?

Well said. Our beliefs must not interfere with our jobs. This is called culturally competent care.

Who you are is who you are. It's never wrong. It simply is.