sharpeimom 2,452 Posts Specializes in ortho, hospice volunteer, psych,. Has 20 years experience. Oct 9, 2009 mikey bsn;3906164]okay, i'm going to go ahead and be unpopular again here. first of all, it's great to consider a patient's unique concerns when you are caring for them.it's not only great, as you put it, it's very very necessary, not only with muslim patients but also with many little old ladies, as well. i doubt that my mom, mil, or their sisters would be comfortable having a male do her peri care. that is just as much a cultural consideration because of the era in which the came of age. however, i don't believe that this is an issue for two reasons. first of all, as already pointed out, i understand that there is no "rule" in islam when it comes to the sex of a health care provide. second, i don't believe that we should have to honor an unreasonable request.it isn't always an unreasonable request. would you insist a vegan eat eggs, bacon washed down by a glass of milk? that's also not respecting someone's personal/cultural beliefs. if there is a sensitive issue, the person can have someone of the same sex be present. however, i don't think the patient should get to pick the sex of their nurse anymore than they should get to pick the race, religion or age of their care provider, at least not in the hospital setting. such a request is unreasonable.it most certainly is not unreasonable. it is no different than when i wear a skirt instead of jeans or slacks when we travel certain foreign countries -- it's a matter of respecting their cultural and religious beliefs. certain catholic countries still prefer the women wear skirts and dresses, so it is not the islam faith that we're discussing here.if they want a different nurse for a good reason, they can request one. however, this isn't sim hospital stay, you don't get to build your own nurse. i don't think you should worry about how to comply with sexist, racist or other unreasonable demands.religious and ageist requests must be accommodated when possible and, if we're honest, sometimes it becomes necessary to assign a very elderly person, who grew up in the deep south, a nurse of the same race. you certainly aren't going to change his/her beliefs at this late date, and it can become devastating for the caretaker. in an ideal world, it wouldn't be necessary, but we don't live in a perfect world.sometimes there are sex-sensitive issues, but nothing any heath care provider can't handle. all of us guys have had countless pregnant vaginal bleeding women and all of the girls no how to handle a penis that drips when it's not supposed to. we are professionals, and should be treated as such. i'm glad you've seen so many many vaginas that you've become blase about them, but that fact will not make my muslim next door neighbor whose baby is due very soon, or one of my elderly female relatives very comfortable, relaxed, less ill-at-ease, or happy. kathysharpeimom:paw::paw:
SuesquatchRN, BSN, RN 10,263 Posts Oct 9, 2009 I don't believe that this is an issue for two reasons. First of all, as already pointed out, I understand that there is no "rule" in Islam when it comes to the sex of a health care provide. This is simply incorrect. Different imams interpret Islamic scripture differently than others and, while some of these rules might be cultural rather than religious, it's difficult to separate the two.To the OP, you might want to understand the terms "halal" and "haram." Basically, the first is allowed, the second is not. Pork is definitely haram, and forbidden. Some medications could cause consternation to a very observant Muslim, particularly gel caps, as gelatin often contains pork products. They will bring this up without your asking if it matters to them.HTH.
Fiona59 8,343 Posts Has 18 years experience. Oct 9, 2009 http://www.islam-usa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=169:information-for-health-care-providers-when-dealing-with-a-muslim-patient&catid=68:health--medicine&Itemid=137Well this should answer everyone's questions if you read it all.Just one question. One statement jumped out at me:* Do not insist on autopsy or organ donation.Do American hospitals insist on organ donation????And finally:I read "if possible" as if you can manage it without re-ordering every nurses assignment on the floor. Nursing is about give and take. I take my friends patients to give her a break from those "charmers", she does the same for me. I've inserted foley's on women for my male coworkers and they've done my teenaged boys who look horrified at the thought (never figured out if it because I was female, the foley was in their future, or "OMG it's going where)Several Muslim posters on the board have in the past stated that when it comes to hospitalization, the sex of the provider is not of the highest priority. Maintenance of modesty and respect of each other was important.
MikeyBSN 439 Posts Specializes in ED. Has 7 years experience. Oct 9, 2009 mikey bsn;3906164]okay, i'm going to go ahead and be unpopular again here. first of all, it's great to consider a patient's unique concerns when you are caring for them.it's not only great, as you put it, it's very very necessary, not only with muslim patients but also with many little old ladies, as well. i doubt that my mom, mil, or their sisters would be comfortable having a male do her peri care. that is just as much a cultural consideration because of the era in which the came of age. however, i don't believe that this is an issue for two reasons. first of all, as already pointed out, i understand that there is no "rule" in islam when it comes to the sex of a health care provide. second, i don't believe that we should have to honor an unreasonable request.it isn't always an unreasonable request. would you insist a vegan eat eggs, bacon washed down by a glass of milk? that's also not respecting someone's personal/cultural beliefs. if there is a sensitive issue, the person can have someone of the same sex be present. however, i don't think the patient should get to pick the sex of their nurse anymore than they should get to pick the race, religion or age of their care provider, at least not in the hospital setting. such a request is unreasonable.it most certainly is not unreasonable. it is no different than when i wear a skirt instead of jeans or slacks when we travel certain foreign countries -- it's a matter of respecting their cultural and religious beliefs. certain catholic countries still prefer the women wear skirts and dresses, so it is not the islam faith that we're discussing here.if they want a different nurse for a good reason, they can request one. however, this isn't sim hospital stay, you don't get to build your own nurse. i don't think you should worry about how to comply with sexist, racist or other unreasonable demands.religious and ageist requests must be accommodated when possible and, if we're honest, sometimes it becomes necessary to assign a very elderly person, who grew up in the deep south, a nurse of the same race. you certainly aren't going to change his/her beliefs at this late date, and it can become devastating for the caretaker. in an ideal world, it wouldn't be necessary, but we don't live in a perfect world.sometimes there are sex-sensitive issues, but nothing any heath care provider can't handle. all of us guys have had countless pregnant vaginal bleeding women and all of the girls no how to handle a penis that drips when it's not supposed to. we are professionals, and should be treated as such. i'm glad you've seen so many many vaginas that you've become blase about them, but that fact will not make my muslim next door neighbor whose baby is due very soon, or one of my elderly female relatives very comfortable, relaxed, less ill-at-ease, or happy. kathysharpeimom:paw::paw:there's a difference between respecting a certain cultural belief and enabling discrimination. in the united states, we don't have an ingrained cultural interest in what a person has for dinner. it is not unreasonable to get a vegan or vegetarian a different food tray. however, i wouldn't expect anyone, in any industry, to comply with requests that are emphatically un-american. it would be different if i went to another country, but we're talking about nursing in this country. even if i went to another country i wouldn't neccessarily follow all of their customs (unless they would arrest me for not doing so, as many countries do). if there was still a country today that used racial slavery, i wouldn't go to the country and order slaves around under the guise of "respecting their culture". i don't think we should be required to enable, what we consider in this country to be, discrinatory ideals.
RuRnurse? 129 Posts Oct 9, 2009 Interesting thread... I believe that ALL cultural and religious beliefs can be accomodated, IF those involved are willing to be open-minded and accept that certain things, like caregiver gender, ARE important to some. One needn't become defensive if a conservative male Muslim prefers a male caregiver for the more personal needs he may have. Or, if such a man wishes his wife to be cared for by a female, etc. This isn't an insult to the caregiver, and shouldn't be seen as such. Something that hasn't been mentioned here is the issue of FGM. Many societies in the Muslim world perform this procedure on girls, and it is very possible, especially in a big city ER, that such a woman may end up there suffering through a difficult labor/delivery. What would the reaction be among uninformed staff at seeing the mass of scar tissue where the genitals would normally be? Some 'circumcisions' are minor, but the pharoanic type is pretty horrendous. Deliveries like that often require surgery to happen. But a nurse who isn't aware of this custom might seriously freak out-and even after being told what it was, might very well feel angry/upset at this, and cause the patient distress by the reaction... I did my sociology paper on this topic, and I am still amazed that it doesn't really get touched on in nursing school. Over 80 million women in the world have had this done, and it is inevitable that a few might find themselves living here through immigration.
waterlily777 71 Posts Specializes in med-surg. Has 6 years experience. Oct 9, 2009 A little bit off topic, but I have to say this...Just so everyone knows: female genital mutilation is NOT an Islamic practice. It is a tribal practice that started well before the arrival of Islam to Africa, and unfortunately got mixed in with religion at some point, but it is NOT condoned in Islam. Again, I am Muslim and I was absolutely floored, aghast, flabbergasted, horrified when I discovered my very good friends from highschool, who happen to be Somalian had that done to them, unbeknownst to their parents, by relatives when they went over there for summer vacation!!!
RuRnurse? 129 Posts Oct 9, 2009 Good point, waterlily. The problem is that Islam doesn't have a central authority, like a pope or something. So, these things are left to individual imams. Also, the older women who have had this done tend to demand that the younger ones do as well. Even relatives other than the parents will sometimes kidnap girls and force it upon them, as your friends had done. This is one tough cultural nut to crack. Hopefully wisdom will prevail in the end...
Inspired By Silence 158 Posts Oct 9, 2009 This is simply incorrect. Different imams interpret Islamic scripture differently than others and, while some of these rules might be cultural rather than religious, it's difficult to separate the two.To the OP, you might want to understand the terms "halal" and "haram." Basically, the first is allowed, the second is not. Pork is definitely haram, and forbidden. Some medications could cause consternation to a very observant Muslim, particularly gel caps, as gelatin often contains pork products. They will bring this up without your asking if it matters to them.HTH.But if I show them that their sensitivities matter TO ME, it makes the whole situation more pleasant for both the patient and the nurse.
caroladybelle, BSN, RN 5,486 Posts Specializes in Oncology/Haemetology/HIV. Oct 9, 2009 A little bit off topic, but I have to say this...Just so everyone knows: female genital mutilation is NOT an Islamic practice. Ditto.There are actually some Christian groups in Asia/Eastern Europe/Mid East that practice a form of this.It also used to occur here in the USA, as a treatment for "hysteria", masturbation, and various mental disorders. As well as other issues.In at least on case that I have seen involved an elderly American woman. She had evidently miscarried several times. Her final birth went to term, and as she put it she "tore" rather badly during birth. When the MD "repaired" her, he warned her that she better not ever get pregnant again because it would kill her. Her spouse died soon after, and she never remarried.Several nurses,consulting MD attempted to place a foley and were unable to do so. All the landmarks were gone, and she been sutured/healed in such a way that she could not have a foley placed.I have taken care of several women that have had the procedure done in foreign nations, and then immigrated here.There were several US medical groups that initially approved of having the procedures done here in the USA "because that way we could do it in a more humane/sterile manner". I believe that they had to retract this, because of public outcry against it.
Cul2 242 Posts Oct 14, 2009 I'm glad to see most posters taking a reasonable approach to this. To MikeyBSN. The reality about this is that if a female or male patientinsists upon same gender care, and continues to insist, they're mostlikely going to get. You need to get used to that. Of course, you canrefuse to treat them, or you an intimidate them enough so it lookslike they comply. There have been a few threads about this generalissue lately, and I'm gratified to see that most posters are focused on the patient, not on themselves. There's a big difference between a patient who discriminates primarily because of race or sex, and someonewho has religious convictions, or someone who has been sexual abused,or someone who just feels plain embarrassed or humiliated by beingtreated by a member of the opposite sex.
SoundofMusic 1,016 Posts Oct 14, 2009 I gather that I've taken care of many muslim patients, yet I've never had any special requests other than dietary ones. Some like to pray in their rooms, but other than that, no issues yet.I've had patients who like to chant loudly in their rooms. I feel this is almost going too far to allow this. I mean -- they are doing it loudly fully realizing they have a roommate. I am all for cultural care, but I also have to hope they have some consideration for others in their rooms. And the person chanting was not a muslim, but of an indian sect. I find mostly that when ill, people act pretty similarly -- they want their family members present, they are fearful of pain, have a lot of questions, like to know what's going on, like you to be nice, respectful, etc. and they all need to have thier basic needs met. I think if you are doing all of this sincerely, you will get along w/ just about every type of person from every culture and they will really appreciate your care.
Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP 17 Articles; 5,259 Posts Specializes in Community, OB, Nursery. Oct 14, 2009 My rule of thumb: when in doubt, just ask. This goes for anyone whose culture/faith/belief about something is different from mine and/or about which I'm unsure. Phrased the right way, people don't mind being asked. Muslim, Sikh, Pagan, Byzantine Catholic, Jewish (of all movements), Russian Orthodox, it works for anyone.
