The Wage Gap Myth

summertx · Dec 30, 2021

4 hours ago, DiverDadBrad said:

I am new to nursing myself, having spent 20+ years as an oil field deep-sea diver. Overall, men seem to make more at my facility. One thing I noticed when interviewing and when discussing the hiring process with my cohort, was that the men at my facility and my school were better prepared for wage negotiation, having researched the pay matrix and highlighting experience that would help the initial salary, whereas the women were more interested in the personal and connection side of the interview. Not a single woman from my class was aware of the pay, pay matrix, or benefits being offered ahead of time, but every man was. I also know that I make more than most with the same experience because I did not accept the initial offer, counterproposing, and getting about 8% more. I don't know if this holds true everywhere, but from my personal experience men are more likely to ask for more, request raises, change positions for pay, etc. than women.

If you have 20 years of experience, you are going to be more prepared. Obviously you're not the reason why "We’re an equal opportunity employer" statement is included on all job applications. Usually it's women and minorities that have to watch their backs.

Orion81RN · Dec 31, 2021

On 12/30/2021 at 1:44 AM, DiverDadBrad said:

I also know that I make more than most with the I don't know if this holds true everywhere, but from my personal experience men are more likely to ask for more, request raises, change positions for pay, etc. than women.

So take it a step further and ask why that would be. Is there something innate in men that make them more likely to ask for higher pay that women simply don’t have? No.

summertx · Jan 1, 2022

5 hours ago, Orion81RN said:

So take it a step further and ask why that would be. Is there something innate in men that make them more likely to ask for higher pay that women simply don’t have? No.

Actually, yes. It's because women are conditioned not to ask for more. Men are told from a young age that their work is worth more, especially white men, therefore no shame in asking, expecting more. Hell, go 'own, get your money.

Orion81RN · Jan 2, 2022

On 12/31/2021 at 8:28 PM, summertx said:

Actually, yes. It's because women are conditioned not to ask for more. Men are told from a young age that their work is worth more, especially white men, therefore no shame in asking, expecting more. Hell, go 'own, get your money.

Conditioned doesn’t equal innate. And WHO were we conditioned by? Almost as if the system was based on misogyny and we live in a patriarchy. Weird.

kbrn2002, ADN, RN · Jan 2, 2022

Here is a link to the annual nurse compensation survey conducted by Medscape. Note slides 11-14 which address the wage gap. It's clear by the statistics based on responses received that men in nursing do indeed make more than women.

The difference is even more pronounced for LPN's than it is for RN's. The survey does indicate the possibility that at least some of the overall higher compensation could be attributed to men tending to work more hours than women or in areas of practice that might offer better pay. The wage gap however also exists with salaried employees.

https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2021-RN-lpn-compensation-report-6014514

PeeWeeQ, ADN, RN, EMT-B · Jan 2, 2022

This isn't rocket science. It's not conditioning, misogyny, or patriarchy---men and women ARE different.

Let me set this up--where I work, we are EXTREMELY short on RN and CNA staff. For several months, our facility is offering an incentive program where you commit to work so many extra shifts (HOURS, actually) per month. The number of hours are tiered (for example, tier 1 would be 24-36 extra hours, 2 is 48 hours, 3 is 72 hours, and 4 is 96 hours). Each tier has a bonus attached to it, payable (in addition to regular, OT, charge, weekend, and shift differential pay) at the end of the month so long as you meet your hourly commitment.

In addition, we have been "mandating" nurses and CNAs to stay past their scheduled shifts to cover for shortages. Of course we can tell someone they are being mandated, but there is no real teeth behind it and they don't HAVE TO stay.

Males on in our facility are numbered a little lower than the industry average, that is, roughly 7% of our RNs are male and most of them work in CCU or the ED, not on med floors like I do.

I FAR surpassed all of the female nurses I work with in pay a couple of months ago, because I keep picking the top tiers (3 and 4) to work extra. The females have decided that they'd rather have the time to spend with children, or on family or leisure time. I know, because I am very close with my coworkers and we talk about it. I and the other 2 males on our floor have more months on the incentive program longer than any of the females combined. Most will do 2 months at a time and then they either stop altogether or take a month or two off of it.

On the program, I've made as much in 6 months this year as I did all last year. How much do you suppose that skews the earnings charts? If you didn't know what was going on, you could look at a female RN who had been there 5 times as long as me and say that I made more than she did and claim what? Misogyny? Patriarchy? Unfairness? Wage gap?

I also take charge nurse A LOT. Is it because I like it? NO. It's because I'm less likely to say something about it, like calling the outgoing charge RN to ask that they not be made charge for their shift. This also drives up my wage comparatively. In addition, with the "mandates," I've been told by several female RNs that they need to get home to their babies and that they WILL NOT stay. So, the next person in line (based on their last mandated date) has to stay. I've never said I wouldn't stay. In fact, I've stayed INSTEAD of others who would have been mandated had I not volunteered. MOST of the female nurses on our floor also covet daytime shifts and prefer 8-hour vs 12-hour shifts. Why? Who knows?--more family time, more regular sleep schedule, school schedules, daycare schedules.... How do I know? Because I am either involved in or overhear the talk.

We also have maternity leave for both mothers AND fathers. The mothers almost always take the max amount of time allowed. I've not known any male/father to take more than 2 weeks...

Say what you want, but the bottom line is that the gender "wage gap" is more behavior driven than anything else.

Footballnut · Mar 3, 2022

So PeeWee, this is true but it still does not address the same pay for the same job which actually exists. Also, as a single parent for a number of years I noticed that men were able to take advantage of these opportunities while I was not able to do so. They had wives at home who took care of their families so they could work the OT, work towards advancement, etc. I had to figure out how to actually be physically present to my family while working. I was just a little jealous that I didn't have that person at home doing this for me. I doubt that many men appreciate the economic value a supportive wife brings to their career whether there are children in the family or not.

Ruby Vee, BSN · Mar 4, 2022

On 1/2/2022 at 12:57 PM, PeeWeeQ said:

This isn't rocket science. It's not conditioning, misogyny, or patriarchy---men and women ARE different.

Let me set this up--where I work, we are EXTREMELY short on RN and CNA staff. For several months, our facility is offering an incentive program where you commit to work so many extra shifts (HOURS, actually) per month. The number of hours are tiered (for example, tier 1 would be 24-36 extra hours, 2 is 48 hours, 3 is 72 hours, and 4 is 96 hours). Each tier has a bonus attached to it, payable (in addition to regular, OT, charge, weekend, and shift differential pay) at the end of the month so long as you meet your hourly commitment.

In addition, we have been "mandating" nurses and CNAs to stay past their scheduled shifts to cover for shortages. Of course we can tell someone they are being mandated, but there is no real teeth behind it and they don't HAVE TO stay.

Males on in our facility are numbered a little lower than the industry average, that is, roughly 7% of our RNs are male and most of them work in CCU or the ED, not on med floors like I do.

I FAR surpassed all of the female nurses I work with in pay a couple of months ago, because I keep picking the top tiers (3 and 4) to work extra. The females have decided that they'd rather have the time to spend with children, or on family or leisure time. I know, because I am very close with my coworkers and we talk about it. I and the other 2 males on our floor have more months on the incentive program longer than any of the females combined. Most will do 2 months at a time and then they either stop altogether or take a month or two off of it.

On the program, I've made as much in 6 months this year as I did all last year. How much do you suppose that skews the earnings charts? If you didn't know what was going on, you could look at a female RN who had been there 5 times as long as me and say that I made more than she did and claim what? Misogyny? Patriarchy? Unfairness? Wage gap?

I also take charge nurse A LOT. Is it because I like it? NO. It's because I'm less likely to say something about it, like calling the outgoing charge RN to ask that they not be made charge for their shift. This also drives up my wage comparatively. In addition, with the "mandates," I've been told by several female RNs that they need to get home to their babies and that they WILL NOT stay. So, the next person in line (based on their last mandated date) has to stay. I've never said I wouldn't stay. In fact, I've stayed INSTEAD of others who would have been mandated had I not volunteered. MOST of the female nurses on our floor also covet daytime shifts and prefer 8-hour vs 12-hour shifts. Why? Who knows?--more family time, more regular sleep schedule, school schedules, daycare schedules.... How do I know? Because I am either involved in or overhear the talk.

We also have maternity leave for both mothers AND fathers. The mothers almost always take the max amount of time allowed. I've not known any male/father to take more than 2 weeks...

Say what you want, but the bottom line is that the gender "wage gap" is more behavior driven than anything else.

I know for a fact -- because I've seen the pay stubs -- that I, a female nurse was paid less PER HOUR than men who had less education, less experience, less experience in the specialty and had not been published as I had been. When raises are awarded as a percentage of the base rate, that gap just gets wider and wider.

Men and women ARE different, and much of it is due to misogyny and the patriarchy. Women work an extra shift AT HOME after they leave work. Men do half (or less) as much of the work of maintaining a home, child care, elder care, etc. Women do the work of elder care even when it's their spouse or partner's parents.

If you have to get home so the baby sitter can leave before she starts charging you double, it's important to get home. Women are usually the ones upon who that falls. It's pretty hard to do incentive shifts when your partner won't take care of the kids or pick up any slack around the house. I'm surprised you haven't heard that in your conversations at work.

And as far as parental leave -- women take longer than two weeks because it takes longer than two weeks to recover from squirting a whole human being out of your nether regions. As a nurse, you should know that.

Compare your annual salary to your colleague's annual salary and you might make more due to overtime, etc. But compare the hourly rate, and I'm guessing you still make more.

Ruby Vee, BSN · Mar 4, 2022

On 1/2/2022 at 12:57 PM, PeeWeeQ said:

This isn't rocket science. It's not conditioning, misogyny, or patriarchy---men and women ARE different.

Let me set this up--where I work, we are EXTREMELY short on RN and CNA staff. For several months, our facility is offering an incentive program where you commit to work so many extra shifts (HOURS, actually) per month. The number of hours are tiered (for example, tier 1 would be 24-36 extra hours, 2 is 48 hours, 3 is 72 hours, and 4 is 96 hours). Each tier has a bonus attached to it, payable (in addition to regular, OT, charge, weekend, and shift differential pay) at the end of the month so long as you meet your hourly commitment.

In addition, we have been "mandating" nurses and CNAs to stay past their scheduled shifts to cover for shortages. Of course we can tell someone they are being mandated, but there is no real teeth behind it and they don't HAVE TO stay.

Males on in our facility are numbered a little lower than the industry average, that is, roughly 7% of our RNs are male and most of them work in CCU or the ED, not on med floors like I do.

I FAR surpassed all of the female nurses I work with in pay a couple of months ago, because I keep picking the top tiers (3 and 4) to work extra. The females have decided that they'd rather have the time to spend with children, or on family or leisure time. I know, because I am very close with my coworkers and we talk about it. I and the other 2 males on our floor have more months on the incentive program longer than any of the females combined. Most will do 2 months at a time and then they either stop altogether or take a month or two off of it.

On the program, I've made as much in 6 months this year as I did all last year. How much do you suppose that skews the earnings charts? If you didn't know what was going on, you could look at a female RN who had been there 5 times as long as me and say that I made more than she did and claim what? Misogyny? Patriarchy? Unfairness? Wage gap?

I also take charge nurse A LOT. Is it because I like it? NO. It's because I'm less likely to say something about it, like calling the outgoing charge RN to ask that they not be made charge for their shift. This also drives up my wage comparatively. In addition, with the "mandates," I've been told by several female RNs that they need to get home to their babies and that they WILL NOT stay. So, the next person in line (based on their last mandated date) has to stay. I've never said I wouldn't stay. In fact, I've stayed INSTEAD of others who would have been mandated had I not volunteered. MOST of the female nurses on our floor also covet daytime shifts and prefer 8-hour vs 12-hour shifts. Why? Who knows?--more family time, more regular sleep schedule, school schedules, daycare schedules.... How do I know? Because I am either involved in or overhear the talk.

We also have maternity leave for both mothers AND fathers. The mothers almost always take the max amount of time allowed. I've not known any male/father to take more than 2 weeks...

Say what you want, but the bottom line is that the gender "wage gap" is more behavior driven than anything else.

And another thing, because I'm still too angry to sleep . . .

A male claiming that there is no patriarchy or misogyny is a lot like a white police officer telling a Black citizen that there is no such thing as racism.

But why would you see misogyny or patriarchy -- you're male. You've benefitted from it.

**NICU Guy, BSN, RN** · Mar 4, 2022

37 minutes ago, Ruby Vee said:

that I, a female nurse was paid less PER HOUR than men who had less education, less experience, less experience in the specialty and had not been published as I had been.

There is a multitude of reasons why a person with less education or experience would make more than you that have nothing to do with male/female. One reason is negotiating pay. If two nurses, Jack and Jill, start their careers at the same Midwest hospital, after two years, Jack moves to the West coast and negotiates a rate higher than his previous job. After another two years, he moves again and negotiates another pay rate higher than his previous job. After another 2 years, he decides to move back to the Midwest and once again work with Jill. The odds are very high that Jack will be making more than Jill due to his pay history from his previous jobs. The same result would happen if Jill moved instead of Jack.

My female coworker and I started a month apart, with the same pay. Seven years later we are still making the exact same pay rate. Where is my male privilege?

Every year AN does a salary survey. I wish they would do an additional salary survey comparing eye color. I bet that there is a pay gap when it comes to eye color.

Ruby Vee, BSN · Mar 6, 2022

It seems pretty clear that the wage gap is not a myth.

On 1/2/2022 at 11:51 AM, kbrn2002 said:

Here is a link to the annual nurse compensation survey conducted by Medscape. Note slides 11-14 which address the wage gap. It's clear by the statistics based on responses received that men in nursing do indeed make more than women.

The difference is even more pronounced for LPN's than it is for RN's. The survey does indicate the possibility that at least some of the overall higher compensation could be attributed to men tending to work more hours than women or in areas of practice that might offer better pay. The wage gap however also exists with salaried employees.

https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2021-RN-lpn-compensation-report-6014514

It seems pretty clear that the wage gap is not a myth. The men (and it seems to be mostly men) are arguing that there is no such thing as a wage gap, and anyway a wage gap is justified because men work more overtime/take positions of leadership/do more charge/gravitate to specialty areas/tend to negotiate their salaries more.

Even a brief perusal of the literature will indicate that there is a gap between hourly rates of men and women, that men are more apt to be hired into leadership positions or asked to do charge, that when salaries are negotiated, women are turned down for higher salaries at a higher rate. In other words, the patriarchy is benefitting these male RNs and they don't want to give that up. Women have more responsibilities in the home, regardless of employment status and regardless of marital status and are often unable to work overtime because of those responsibilities. So males argue that they aren't benefitting from the patriarchy, and besides there's no such thing. At least not in nursing.

Instead of arguing that the wage gap, patriarchy and misogyny are myths, we should be working to achieve a goal of equal pay for equal work regardless of race, gender, creed, national origin, disabilities or LGBTQ . . . we're all nurses, all human. If we're doing the same job, we should be getting paid the same, with differences for education, experience and special certifications and NOT for gender.

Males should not be benefitting at everyone else's expense. And they especially should not be benefitting while arguing that there is no such thing as a wage gap.

Nursetom1963, BSN · Mar 13, 2022

I have no idea what my coworkers make, and I would have to print out a pay stub to be sure of what I make per hour. My union is always trying to get more money for us, except me; I tell them "I don't want more money, I want more hospital, adequate equipment, pharmacy, staff and support" Everyone looks at me like I crazy.