I work at a union hospital, I feel that I am paid a fair wage and am happy with my insurance plan and benefits. While I am traditionaly not a pro union person, I do see the need for unions in some situations. My primary gripe with unions is that, in my experience, they promote political issues that I disagree with. One example is the push for an increase in the minimum wage. I don't want to get into a debate about if the minimum wage should or should not be increased, I just want to see if any of you agree or disagree with the opinion I'm about to express.
For the ease of explaining what I'm thinking I'm going to just use arbitrary numbers here. Lets say minimum wage is $5.00/hr and RN pay is $20.00/hr.
The various factors in the economy have determined that an RN makes $20/hr, or that the value of the RN is worth $15 more than than that of an unskilled or minimum wage worker.
I'm thinking that if my union is pushing for the minimum wage to increase to (for example only) $14/hr, then the union should be pushing just as hard for the RN wage to also increase by 50%. If the union does not push for an equal pay increase for the RN's it represents, then isn't it diminishing the value of the RN's education/skills/knowledge. What I'm saying is it seems that to close the gap between an RN's pay and minimum wage, we are effectively earning less or our jobs have been devalued. I'm wondering if this makes sense and if anyone agrees or disagrees and why.
Unlike past politial threads I've commented in, I promise to keep civil. I'm only interested in discussion and getting some of your input.
My struggle with the increase in minimum wage is that if it brings a worker to an income higher than what they qualified for subsidies at, the increase in income will not cover the costs of the things they lost access to. In my state, the proposed change is just over $7/hr to just over $10/hr. This change will lose a person their health benefits, section 8 housing, food stamps, WIC, and whatever else I'm missing. $120 per week won't cover that. The idea of raised minimum wage is to benefit the low-income earner while taking people "off the system". There needs to be some way of bridging the gap between new wages and loss of subsidies.
That said... In some of these places looking at going up to $15, this actually makes me a bit angry. You have college graduates making little more than that. The skilled labor force might expect to make that. I don't want to say any one person (occupation) is actually "better" than another, but I really don't think it's reasonable for someone washing dishes to make the same amount as a person who spent years of their lives and countless thousands of dollars learning a skill, trade, or went to college. Every contributor to society is a vital part of it, but if we are to adjust minimum wage by multiple dollars per hour, wages would be pretty screwed up without looking at higher than minimum wage earners as well. Perhaps this is idealized or naive, and I'm okay with admitting that, but I do think an LPN should get paid much better than a cashier.
The political system and powers that be prefer to advocate for education as the solution to the economic problems of inequality rather than be faced with the need to raise wages and benefits that unions advocate for. They don't want the union solution to be used that has worked well in many European countries. Instead they claim education is the key. Now all these college grads were lead to believe getting a degree was the way for a great job. Then they graduate to find out their degree is virtually worthless and end up working as waitresses and secretaries etc making minimum wage or not much more! On top of the disappointment and disillusion of this reality, they are now stuck with students loans they can't afford to pay back. Even Canada allows for bankruptcy of student loans, but our country you will be paying till you die. Your only option is income based repayment of 20-25 years if you don't get a decent job!
I'm not against education, but believe we need govt support for workers to have decent wages and benefits as capitalism will not do this. I envy Europe and Canada where workers have national healthcare, decent wages and benefits that rival us and put us to shame!
Without govt support, unions have been workers best hope for decent pay and benefits. The breaking of the unions has lead to decreasing wages and benefits of most workers in America and only the top 1% getting richer and the rest of us barely getting by!
Min wage where I live is 10/hr and I, as an RN, am paid $80/hr. They can increase min wage by quite a but before it even begins to devalue my work. I make plenty of money for the work I do. I was fortunate to have the opportunity to go to school and was lucky enough to find a job after. I know a lot of people, like much of my family, have not had these opportunities. I think everyone should be paid a livable wage. I don't know that even 15 is livable where I am. I haven't ever had to try, but I know it would be tight.
What type of nursing job do you do that pays $80/hr? The highest where I live is between $40-50/hr and that's for pool or agency! I've even worked with some agency nurses that said pay has fallen and they are working for around $30/hr!
Min wage where I live is 10/hr and I, as an RN, am paid $80/hr. They can increase min wage by quite a but before it even begins to devalue my work. I make plenty of money for the work I do. I was fortunate to have the opportunity to go to school and was lucky enough to find a job after. I know a lot of people, like much of my family, have not had these opportunities. I think everyone should be paid a livable wage. I don't know that even 15 is livable where I am. I haven't ever had to try, but I know it would be tight.
What type of nursing job do you do that pays $80/hr? The highest where I live is between $40-50/hr!
Not gonna lie. I just post stalked to figure that out. I'm curious, too! Looks like in August, violetsmom was a new grad in medsurg.
I work nights per diem so its a bit higher than starting for most people. I'm a new grad in med surg. But in the bay area this is not unusual pay. Its expensive here, but I've never lived anywhere else... And yet min wage is still only 10/hr... There are homeless people who have min wage jobs.
"Too many people are completely oblivious to how this country runs. I like to think the founding fathers envisioned the voters being informed citizens with some skin in the game, rather than a mass of zombies voting for whoever had the biggest advertising budget"
Agree 100% but until they bring back reading tests to allow people to vote, this won't ever change. We have so many low information voters who know who Snooki is and are living off the government system but can't tell you how many branches of government there are or who the VP is.
Specializes in Mental Health, Gerontology, Palliative.
Personally after going through an episode of 'management insanity' recently I would not be without my union. Fortunately my union rep was able to point out in the nicest possible way that the manager was utterly wrong and to pursue it would be very detrimental to the organisation as a whole.
I've read some posts on here with nurses having legal issues and having to pretty much 'sell a vital organ' to try and find the money to pay for it. I also get indemnity insurance included in my union fees.
There are aspects of their agenda I dont agree with however the protection I have far outweighs the negatives.
"Then they graduate to find out their degree is virtually worthless and end up working as waitresses and secretaries etc making minimum wage or not much more!"
Ya, I'm not sure how people don't realize their Music History degree or Art Appreciation degree that cost them $30,000 and up ($100,000 at a private university)will not be a good return on their investment. My generation tends to not take responsibility for their bad decisions. I'm all for people going to trade school where the tuition is cheaper and the ROI is better. Or get a STEM degree.
"I envy Europe and Canada where workers have national healthcare, decent wages and benefits that rival us and put us to shame! "
Um, I've lived and worked in Europe. Their healthcare system isn't all that great. They pay out the wazoo for it in taxes, like 40-50% of their income. Plus, now that they've got all these poor eastern Europe countries coming into the EU, they are bogging down their system. My friend in England took his daughter to the doctor for tonsillitis and the follow-up appointment would be six months later (too many patients and not enough doctors). He was given the option to go to the doctor's private clinic the next week which he opted to do. Oh, and they cap their pay for the doctors and nurses over in Europe. You know, because healthcare workers should do this job out of the kindness of their heart.
Ya, I'm not sure how people don't realize their Music History degree or Art Appreciation degree that cost them $30,000 and up ($100,000 at a private university)will not be a good return on their investment. My generation tends to not take responsibility for their bad decisions. I'm all for people going to trade school where the tuition is cheaper and the ROI is better. Or get a STEM degree.
Back when Occupy Wall Street was all the rage, I had an acquaintance who was all about the bandwagon. Lengthy rants on a daily basis about how he has a college degree and there are NO JOBS!!!! OH.EM.GEE. He majored in philosophy. PHILOSOPHY. This is the problem we've run into being part of the "you can be whatever you want when you grow up as long as you go to college" generation.
We will have more and more people who will choose to not work and just collect increased benefits instead.
If $10 and hour with welfare assistance is getting by, and $15.00 an hour is not enough to live on, however, just enough to kick one off of assistance, how many people will just choose to quit their job and call it a day?
And as with nursing to a cashier....many, many people can not find jobs to begin with. So they need to do what they can to work. With all that being said, there are very, very few fast food places that employ an American worker. For someone sending cash home to their country of origin, $10 an hour is a really good wage.
With all that being said, there are many, many RN's being recruited from other countries to come and work. So even if minimum wage is not applicable, the powers that be are not willing to raise any wages. Part of the allure of nurses from overseas to facilities in the US is the ability to stay at that $20 per hour, which sent back home allows families in other countries to live wealthy.
Bottom line--Outscoring works for the facility. Raising the minimum wage just enough to get people off of public assistance, but not quite enough to make ends meet will ensure that they make alternate choices.
We will have more and more people who will choose to not work and just collect increased benefits instead.
Bottom line--Outscoring works for the facility. Raising the minimum wage just enough to get people off of public assistance, but not quite enough to make ends meet will ensure that they make alternate choices.
Or, people making minimum wage will just cut their hours and still collect benefits while profiting from their job.
Work less = Same paycheck value = Same government assistance benefits
That's great for you that you have the option to negotiate, but for the majority of nurses this isn't an option. Strong unions like the NNU have been the backbone for safe staffing and decent pay for many nurses. Unionized states tend to have higher wages than say the south for example with its Right to work states! I wish I lived in a strong unionized state and wish I had the NNU fighting for me and on my side. Many of us are stuck with the only option to either change jobs or relocate for higher pay. Not everyone can do this!
OH, I completely agree with you concerning the need for strong unions! I've been a union supporter my whole adult life as multiple generations of my family have been union members and I know the benefit it has given them.
My reply was simply to answer the question asked of me by the other poster.
brandy1017, ASN, RN
2,910 Posts
The political system and powers that be prefer to advocate for education as the solution to the economic problems of inequality rather than be faced with the need to raise wages and benefits that unions advocate for. They don't want the union solution to be used that has worked well in many European countries. Instead they claim education is the key. Now all these college grads were lead to believe getting a degree was the way for a great job. Then they graduate to find out their degree is virtually worthless and end up working as waitresses and secretaries etc making minimum wage or not much more! On top of the disappointment and disillusion of this reality, they are now stuck with students loans they can't afford to pay back. Even Canada allows for bankruptcy of student loans, but our country you will be paying till you die. Your only option is income based repayment of 20-25 years if you don't get a decent job!
I'm not against education, but believe we need govt support for workers to have decent wages and benefits as capitalism will not do this. I envy Europe and Canada where workers have national healthcare, decent wages and benefits that rival us and put us to shame!
Without govt support, unions have been workers best hope for decent pay and benefits. The breaking of the unions has lead to decreasing wages and benefits of most workers in America and only the top 1% getting richer and the rest of us barely getting by!