"The Jesus Factor"

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A collegue of mine in the ICU is soon moving to Home Health for several reasons, both personal and otherwise. At the nurses station the other day, she and one of the doctors were talking, and she mentioned to him, regarding one of his patients, that "The Jesus factor was all squared away". This co-worker is a very active Christian and so is the MD in question. I asked her what that meant and she said that she liked to make sure where people were going when they die. She said that that was one reason why she wanted to do home health and hospice, was to help people find Jesus before they die.

She is an awesome, awesome nurse, but I was always thought that this is not ethical. I would never discuss religion with a patient unless they wanted to and I don't think it's correct to try to convert them. She's basically going to be evangelizing her Home Health patients. I find that disturbing.

Specializes in Med-Surg.
I picked the word persecuted in response to a posting about being banned from mentionning religion at all. I reallydon't think the rules are any different for non-believers.

As one who has moderated for the past year, and whom has been a member here for a long time, I can say with certainty one does not get banned for talking religion. Take notice of the names of some of our members, some are quite religious. Take a look at the NCLEX forum and you will need many high praises to the Lord. Look at some of the sigs in peoples posts.

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Have you ever talked about a great weekend (like I talked about a chuch retreat I went on one weekend). Have you ever used the name of the Lord as an exclamation (as I have said Jesus blessed me by __). Have you ever talked about the great time you had w/ your friends Sun. (as I have talked about what a great time I had at church on Sun.). Have you ever talked about a trip you have been on (as I have talked about medical mission trips I have been on w/ my church).

If none of this applies to you then I am not talking to you. But for most your "religiousness" or "non-religiousness" is part of who you are and it influences all areas of your life. It is impossible for me to not talk about it when it is part of my whole life. Icouldn't talk about my husband, we met in Sun. school, his mom is a church sec., we teach church nursery together. etc. Ican't talk about my kids education, I home school under the umbrella of my church. I can't talk about my vacations, we usually go somewhere w/ the church or w/ friends from the church. I'm sorry if I bring up my "religiousness" it just finds its way into so many areas of my life.

All of those things can be said without being really religious about it. I'm being unclear. Here's what I mean: You can say "I had a great time in church Sunday" "My husband and I really enjoyed the church retreat" "My medical mission trip was great" "I feel really blessed when I look at my family", etc. all without necessarily discussing your particular religion and they would all be appropriate for the workplace IMO. That's very different from "The Bible says...." "Jesus tells us...." "God wants us to...." "Have you been saved?", etc. Those statements probably aren't appropriate for the workplace without really knowing the person you're talking with will welcome it.

I don't use the G word for an exclamation btw. I do that out of respect for my Christian coworkers.

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Specializes in Cardiac Care, ICU.
Many many people speak as you do about what goes on in their life. I work with quite a bit of people that are frequently saying things like "the Lord has blessed me today........." etc. and Monday is a recount of church. So much so people rarely take notice.

This is why when I read statements like "it's so hard to be a Christian these days. in America.......", "why is that the mere mention of Jesus is a federal offense", "why does it seem like every time Christ's name is mentioned, it gets taken out of context, people accuse you of preaching to them, claims that it is wrong and bans us from discussing it? Doesn't seem quite right. But, that is how we have been treated for thousands of years, and how we will continue to be treated. I just wonder what non believers would do if they were treated the same as what we have been."................etc. when Christianity is alive and well and the fabric of our society and we hear about God and Jesus day in and day out from the President to the housekeeper.

Let one person take offense at what a Christian says and does and it's blown out of context and Christians cry persecution (my word). I am sure it hurts some Christians that in the past generation they've seen non-Christians rise against them, but to me it's a good thing. Otherwise I fear the evangelecals among them would make the Bible the constitution . They've done quite well in the Republican party and have the ear of the President, and some of us need to keep them in check. :)

All and all it's still quite easy to be a Christian. Sometimes Christians do cross a lline however, and sometime non-Christians need to chill and give them a break.

Sorry I went off on a tangent, this wasn't targeted at you specifically, just babble that your started me toward. LOL Take it with a grain of salt. :)

We need a salt shaker smiley.:lol2:

Seriously, I have never felt persecuted and I haven't ever said to any one I have. Any Christian who will say that needs to go to China or one of the Middle Eastern countries to see what true persecution is.

What I have experienced is the eyes rolling and the quick subject change when I talked about what I did Sun. (I didn't initiate the conversation, just a bunch of folks talking). Also, I've already described the run in I had w/ a doc. over a Christian mag. that I wasn't showing to anyone. And then there are those times when you say something and someone will automatically think you're judging them. I made a casual comment about there being no nice one piece bathing suits for my daughter and it got interpreted as I thought people shouldn't put their daughters in two-piece bathing suits. I don't like my daughter to but I don't care what you put your daughter in. And look at the post when I talked about a nurse being "hurt" by a Christian. She talked about being exposed to pushy Christians and it appeared she had gotten upset by it (irritated was her exact word). And I got two post by people who thought I was condescending to her. I was trying to express that I was sorry that it happened to her and that it happens to Christians at times too. And you even took what I said and changed the meaning from "there are times when I feel non Christians try to impose their views on me" to feelings of persecution. I am now in the position of having to deny I feel persecuted when I never said any such thing. I'm not upset about it but just use it as an example of how sometimes people attribute meanings and motives that were never intended.

I don't know the OP or the nurse she was talking about but someone made a point that she overheard a conv. b/t two Christians who were speaking a dialect of Christianese and was upset by what she heard or thought she heard. Mabey she put an interpretation on the woman's answer that the woman never intended? I am not defending the woman. To witness to someone who does not have the opportunity to tell you to shut up and go away is wrong. What i'm saying is that non Christians aren't the only ones to have others views thrust upon them or to have what they say miscontrued.

Thanks for your input.

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Specializes in Cardiac Care, ICU.
All of those things can be said without being really religious about it. I'm being unclear. Here's what I mean: You can say "I had a great time in church Sunday" "My husband and I really enjoyed the church retreat" "My medical mission trip was great" "I feel really blessed when I look at my family", etc. all without necessarily discussing your particular religion and they would all be appropriate for the workplace IMO. That's very different from "The Bible says...." "Jesus tells us...." "God wants us to...." "Have you been saved?", etc. Those statements probably aren't appropriate for the workplace without really knowing the person you're talking with will welcome it.

I don't use the G word for an exclamation btw. I do that out of respect for my Christian coworkers.

But can I say " I had a great time at the retreat. We studied what Ephesians has to say about salvation through grace, and the praise group really helped me feel closer to God" like someone else could say " I had a great time at the beach. I learned how to scuba dive and being under the water like that really made me feel closer to nature"?

If so I appreciate you understanding that I had a great time and want to talk about it just like everyone else gets to talk about their special times

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But can I say " I had a great time at the retreat. We studied what Ephesians has to say about salvation through grace, and the praise group really helped me feel closer to God" like someone else could say " I had a great time at the beach. I learned how to scuba dive and being under the water like that really made me feel closer to nature"?

If so I appreciate you understanding that I had a great time and want to talk about it just like everyone else gets to talk about their special times

Like everything, it depends on who you're talking with. The details aren't necessarily always appropriate to share, though sometimes it's fine. If it's a coworker or a patient you know shares your views, that may be a great conversation. If it's someone you know is touchy about the topic of religion, it may be smarter to leave those details out. We don't always get to share every detail of our special times at work with everybody. That isn't why we go to work anyways. I don't share a lot of details about my off time because I know it isn't going to be everybody's cup of tea. I might say "My boyfriend and I had a nice weekend" but I'd leave out details that would offend the morality of the Christian nurses I work with. With my friends at work I would probably go into those details because I know where they stand on issues relating to relationships. This isn't only about religion. There are a lot of topics that we know people are sensitive about and probably wouldn't be supersmart to get into much at work like politics, abortion, race, sex, partying, drug use, etc. A little discretion goes a long way.

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Specializes in Cardiac Care, ICU.
Like everything, it depends on who you're talking with. The details aren't necessarily always appropriate to share, though sometimes it's fine. If it's a coworker or a patient you know shares your views, that may be a great conversation. If it's someone you know is touchy about the topic of religion, it may be smarter to leave those details out. We don't always get to share every detail of our special times at work with everybody. That isn't why we go to work anyways. I don't share a lot of details about my off time because I know it isn't going to be everybody's cup of tea. I might say "My boyfriend and I had a nice weekend" but I'd leave out details that would offend the morality of the Christian nurses I work with. With my friends at work I would probably go into those details because I know where they stand on issues relating to relationships. This isn't only about religion. There are a lot of topics that we know people are sensitive about and probably wouldn't be supersmart to get into much at work like politics, abortion, race, sex, partying, drug use, etc. A little discretion goes a long way.

Oh, believe me, I learned a long time ago that what is just a conversation about something in my life I'm excited about can be totally taken wrong. Can you see what I am saying though? Most people would find it a lot more acceptable for you to talk about your weekend at the beach (w/or w/o the boyfriend) than for me to talk about my Christian retreat.

BTW, I don't know if your an exceptionally reserved person or if I just work w/ a lot of really talkative people. I have learned details about their lives that would curl your hair!:lol2: It seems on nights the only topics are sex and bowels.:rotfl:

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Don't assume someone is just praying for your salvation. I've prayed for people to find peace in a time of crisis, strength in a time of trial, perseverence during a time of challenge and once even that a nurse would find the nursing note she lost befor she got too far behind.

Prayer is not about bringing a list of bad people before God so He can arrange the proper punishment and target them for "conversion". It is a conversation b/t the believer and God.

Oh, I do understand, and respect the kind of prayer that you talk about here. However, the feeling I got from that other post, the one that got me thinking about it, was clearly 'I'm going to pray for them whether they want it or not, if I feel they need divine help'. That kind of thing. And I'm quite sure I know people who DO view their prayers as that very thing: they are going to pray for someone to "find Jesus" because that person feels it's needed.

That's the kind of "creepy" I meant. I don't think anyone would mind the kind of prayers that ask that a nurse find her missing notes, or that a student do well on an exam! :) But I think, to a zealot, the difference between praying for a neighbor to do well on an exam and praying for that same neighbor to find her way to Jesus (or G-d) is nothing. That's where my thoughts on the subject come into play.

Offering to pray that they find their tax papers in time, I doubt anyone would think twice about. Telling someone "I'm going to pray for you" because the tone of the conversation was dismissive of Christianity.....that's disturbing. That's the difference I meant.

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Other people have also been banned from expressing their religious beliefs, also; this has NOT been limited to Christianity.

For example, I do not wear my pentagram necklace to the hospital or home I go to as a nurse because it may make people think that I am a worshipper of Satan. Most Pagans do not acknowledge Satan at all, but because of the respect that I have for the patients I care for, I do not wish to have them fear me. I do not worship Satan or any dark force; however, once a person views the pentagram, it may interfere with their healing because of the assumption. I have encountered some patients, who are not even comfortable when they see a health care professional wearing the cross because of their personal interpetation of what that cross means to them. Not everyone views Christianity as a positive influence in their lives. Being a Pagan was my PERSONAL choice. Now, my philosophy from my personal beliefs affect how I practice nursing because we are taught to learn and study all religions and to respect other faiths and cultures. I believe in karma, and whatever energy I render will come back to me three-fold, so, I try to give the best nursing care that I can under the circumstances provided. But, I do not push this on the patients, families or the staff that I work with because it is ethically wrong to me. It is infusing guilt to a person that is in the most vulnerable position of their lives to have them even think that their right to care will be tarnished by a judgmental nurse, physician or any other medical professional and it adds more stress to them.

I like how you think. :)

I don't wear my religion on my sleeve (or ears, neck, or wrist, etc) NOT because I'm ashamed of any of it, or because I don't want others to know. My faith is no secret, which is why I'm sometimes surprised when I hear a surprised "oh, I didn't know you were Jewish". I don't advertise because it's of no consequence to those I am helping to heal. And for some, sadly, perhaps it's a detriment. A shame, no doubt, but it's a factor in the equation that doesn't have to be brought to the table at all. It's not about the nurse, remember?

That's something I don't get when it comes to "sharing" about religion with patients. If you think about it, really think about it, do they really CARE what you believe? Nope. They care what they believe, and they want you to acknowledge that. That's human nature, pure and simple, and doesn't get left at the door to the hospital when they check in. They are sometimes looking for confirmation that it's ok for them to believe as they do, but again, they really DON'T care which house of worship you, the nurse, attend! I tend to think it's presumptuous to think most patients are actually interested in their nurse's lives to that degree.

Blessed Be :)

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Reading the multiple comments about persecution of Christians, I too have to concur that there IS no persecution of Christians in America. Seriously, if you want to see what persecution looks like, read up on what's happening in Africa (pick a country, Rwanda and Darfur being most recent off the top of my head). Read up on pograms of Russia late 1800's to early 1900's, and czars Nicholas and Alexander. Look up German political history from about 1930 through the end of WWII. Spanish Inquisition. "Witch hunts" by fervent Christians in Colonial America. And for those who need some real head-scratching, look into the murders of Protestants by Catholics in England at the time of Queen Mary of Tudor. Beheadings and burning at the stake for "heresy". Hard to say it's Christian persecution when it's also Christians who are doing the persecuting!

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Fascinating thread :)

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Oh, believe me, I learned a long time ago that what is just a conversation about something in my life I'm excited about can be totally taken wrong. Can you see what I am saying though? Most people would find it a lot more acceptable for you to talk about your weekend at the beach (w/or w/o the boyfriend) than for me to talk about my Christian retreat.

BTW, I don't know if your an exceptionally reserved person or if I just work w/ a lot of really talkative people. I have learned details about their lives that would curl your hair!:lol2: It seems on nights the only topics are sex and bowels.:rotfl:

I do see what you're saying, I just don't think Christianity or even religion is exceptional that way. There are plenty of topics you don't discuss around people unless you know they are ok with it. We sure do have the racy conversations where I work too, but we know who NOT to discuss that in front of. It's no different for the Jesus talks. I've had religious conversations at work before that were fine, but again, I knew who I was talking with and that they wouldn't be offended. A day at the beach is considered polite conversation to pretty much everyone. Other topics might not be. That's just the way it is and there is no point in fighting that. My boyfriend and I going to San Diego offended a nurse I work with because she asked about our hotel room arrangements and dissaproved of the fact that I wasn't waiting for marriage. She's npt someone I would get into deep conversations about sex or religion with.

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Specializes in LTC, Med/Surg, Peds, ICU, Tele.
i agree totally.

i worked at a hospice unit with a nurse who often "witnessed" to her pts. several pts brought it up to me that they were uncomfortable with it, but did not want to risk upsetting the nurse or jeopardize their care from her.

i told each pt i would speak to my mgr about their concerns, but each of them told me not to, as they were afraid of the consequences.

only when the patient brings up the subject of religeon is it appropriate to discuss it w/ a pt- and it's never appropriate to try to convert or "save" a pt.

this is my concern, thanks for the testimony as to the danger of this. people who are very sick and/or dying should not have to be subjected to a religious sales pitch while they are in such a vulnerable position. most people will keep their mouth shut for the reasons you describe.

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