"The Jesus Factor"

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A collegue of mine in the ICU is soon moving to Home Health for several reasons, both personal and otherwise. At the nurses station the other day, she and one of the doctors were talking, and she mentioned to him, regarding one of his patients, that "The Jesus factor was all squared away". This co-worker is a very active Christian and so is the MD in question. I asked her what that meant and she said that she liked to make sure where people were going when they die. She said that that was one reason why she wanted to do home health and hospice, was to help people find Jesus before they die.

She is an awesome, awesome nurse, but I was always thought that this is not ethical. I would never discuss religion with a patient unless they wanted to and I don't think it's correct to try to convert them. She's basically going to be evangelizing her Home Health patients. I find that disturbing.

Specializes in Cardiac Care, ICU.
It's offensive because you are presuming that person wants you to pray for him/her. And there are so many variations of belief even in Christianity, that what you may believe as a Christian may not be acceptable for another Christian.

To say "lighten up" is just being dismissive of the other person's beliefs, and is equally insensitive.

Was not trying to be dismissive, I apologize. I was trying to make the point that when you are dealing w/ people who believe differently they may express themselves differently so why take offense? I have non Christian friends who use the term Oh my G__ or even G__ D__ w/o thinking about it. Using the Lord's name in vain is highly offensive to Christians but I don't get offended about it b/c that is the way they express themselves. They don't believe what I do, why would I expect them to use the same expressions that I do? Before we get all up in arms about the offensive thing someone just said, mabey we should just pause for a minute and remember they come from a different belief syst. I really think most people do not deliberately try to offend. My friends aren't trying to offend me that is just the way they are, and I don't have the right to insist they change how they are for me. I need to learn to accept them as they are.

BTW, believe it or not I always ask people first if they mind if I pray for them. It is just not respectful to just announce to someone you will pray for them w/o them having expressed a desire for prayer.

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Specializes in Cardiac Care, ICU.
I can totally understand this. I was "the wrong kind of Christian" and paid for it, too.

Just about every Christian has been the "wrong kind of Christian" at some point. Name any group of people and if you look hard enough you will find that most of its members have done something at some point that goes against the central beliefs of that group. We are fallible people. Sometimes we just can't live up to our ideals. Hopefully we live up to them more often than not!

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Specializes in Cardiac Care, ICU.
Hi Fronkey Bean,

I really enjoy this post. Having never grown up with a particular religion, I tend to respond to religious ideology in a very black and white sort of way. But I have had a few conversations that have informed me more of the complexity of the subject, and this is one of them. My general response to Christian ideology tends to be somewhat negative--back when I was a reckless teen I had numerous people "witness" to me, and I found their message of unconditional love/you must be saved from the fires of hell confusing and disturbing. I actively chose to NOT pursue Christian faith because of the lack of acceptance of GLBT people. It seemed both condescending and hypocritical. But then a good friend of mine who is a lesbian and married to her partner converted to Catholocism. I asked her how she feels about that when many members of her church don't accept her for who she is, she told me that that is a price she is willing to pay for a religion that she loves.

I am also married to a man who grew up Catholic--very Catholic in fact. His family thought he would become a priest--he was very contemplative as a kid, read everything he could get his hands on, had a relationship with nature that was deep and innocent and profound. But along his path, and through his love of life and thought, he learned that he wasn't actually Catholic. He respects the religion--enough to understand that it is not what he believes.

So, when you say that "hell" is, definitionally, a separation from God (not the fiery pits reserved for non-compliant sinners), I am once again realizing that this debate is not only religious, but also philosophical and cultural. If someone believes that I will be separated from a God that they believe in, that's ok with me. It leaves an opening for me to form my own beliefs--and if I want to devote my own faith in God, or nature, or in humanity, I can do that and my afterlife will be what it is--and does not necessarily contradict the beliefs of a Christian. I understand Christian culture as an American (which, in this day and age with Bush and war, etc. is very hard to digest), but I don't understand Christian culture from a Christian perspective. Now, I know that my friend who became catholic, and my husband's family who are all very religious, don't think I'm going to some fiery pit when I die. But I think, because of some of my other experiences with Christianity (I tried to become a Baptist for a summer in high school--that's when I learned that gay people were "loved" but still "going to hell"), I still respond to the concept of proselytizing nurses with suspicion.

You know, as long as my nurse respects me for who I am, and does not maintain a condescending belief that I "need to be saved," (which is inherently disrespectful), then I am open to religious discussion--on equal grounds. I appreciate that my in-laws pray for me. I like being in their thoughts. That's my interpretation of their kindness.

Thanks for giving me something to think about.

This has been an interesting post and I think it is great that so many people of different beliefs can have this kind of an in depth discussion w/o harsh words.

I'm glad I could clarify the Christian perspective of hell. While I believe hell to be an actual place, it is made hell by the abcense of God. BTW, I am pretty sure that the lake of fire is reserved for Satan. Need to check that though.

I have a bit of an advantage to seeing both sides of this issue as I was a "reckless teen" myself (my twenties were pretty reckless too). I too had Jesus shared w/ me during this time. Most of the people who witnessed to me were respectful of me but there were a couple who were very pushy and condemning. :angryfire I don't know why people think if they just keep talking after you clearly say "I'm not interested" that you will suddenly welcome what they have to say. That's why so many people dislike salespeople!

Anyway, having come to a place in my life where I was ready to receive Jesus, I can look back and see that trying to push your views on people not only doesn't work it is likely to make some one dig in their heels and be antagonistic towards whatever you were trying to push.

Just one last comment. Being on this side of the debate now, I also realize that not every mention of the name of Jesus is meant to try to evangelize. As often as not it is just a piece of conversation about a part of someone's life.

Thanks for your post.

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Specializes in Cardiac Care, ICU.
As a gay man I've gotten the "I'll pray for you borther....." more times than I can count. Trust me I didn't interpret it well at all as it was spat out with disgust, or at the least judgement and disdain. My response has always been "and I'll definately be praying for you.":angryfire

I have been hurt by Christians in the past many times, but certainly don't judge the religion or it's people. I'm going to a Christian school for one thing. I've been a devout Christian myself for many years, and I know the Bible. (I'm currently not identified with the Christian faith.) I certainly don't think the mention of Jesus is preachy and non-Christians perhaps have gotten a bit pc and touchy. However, I certainly am not going to buy into the idea that Christians are persecuted in this country or that they've been perscuted for the last 2000 years.

"Lighten up" has always been a phrase that has bothered me (I've discussed in a few other threads in days gone by) please don't ever use it on me.

Again, sorry. I was not trying to demean anyone or stifle the debate. (see my earlier post).

Tweety what you experienced was being "prayed at" instead of prayed for and it is inappropriate.

I guess I should clarify, when I ask a pt if they would like prayer it is r/t their illness and nothing else (unless they specifically ask).

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Specializes in Cardiac Care, ICU.
I didn't say that I'd ever been hurt by a Christian. I did say that I've witnessed some pushy ones, but never said or implied that I thought that of all Christians. It is better to stick with what people say rather than jumping to conclusions about what they think, particularly when they are strangers on a bulletin board.

please see my earlier post. I intended the word hurt to indicate the irritation you said you felt and that is all. I am sorry I was not clear.

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Specializes in Cardiac Care, ICU.
I read somewhere in this thread that a poster "didn't need anyone's permission" to pray for someone, that they could do it whenever they saw the need for G-d's intervention. I honestly never thought about that before, and it completely creeps me out. The idea that someone could be thinking "that poor person, I'm going to go pray for her/him now to accept Jesus/come to G-d/give up a life of perversions" unnerves me quite a bit.

Obviously no one has control over what other people think about us, and what they might tell others in confidence, but just the IDEA that someone could presume to use "prayer time" as a way to get a Divine Intervention for what THEY see as appropriate for me.....wow. I get why they'd do it....but man, I hope no one's praying "for" me like that!!

Don't assume someone is just praying for your salvation. I've prayed for people to find peace in a time of crisis, strength in a time of trial, perseverence during a time of challenge and once even that a nurse would find the nursing note she lost befor she got too far behind.

Prayer is not about bringing a list of bad people before God so He can arrange the proper punishment and target them for "conversion". It is a conversation b/t the believer and God.

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Specializes in Cardiac Care, ICU.
In fairness, she wouldn't be human if she didn't care about what nurses were doing to their patients. We are all responsible for nurses' following our code of ethics.

As far as Christians being banned from discussing religion.... I don't get this one. I don't see Christians being persecuted in our society. The USA has to be one of the most Christian nations in the world. I get to hear about Jesus and God ALL the time without ever seeking that out. I go to work and plenty of people talk about church. No one gets in trouble for it. The only time it's ever an issue is if they can't respect someone else saying they don't want to discuss religion (not their church activities, not what they are doing with their church next weekend, but actual religious discussions). Some of us aren't interested in hearing about why we should love Jesus and I'm personally really not interested in explaining why I'm not a Christian and could never be a Christian to my coworkers. If I'm honest about it, they could be hurt by my answer and I don't want that. To continue to bring it up again and again and again at work with people who don't want to discuss it is simply unprofessional. It would be no different that discussing your sex life or your political views. If you're discussing why you became a nurse and said "My Christian faith guided me to it", that would likely not bother anyone. Discussion like that isn't banned anywhere I've worked and I'm in the Liberal/pc land of California. You sound like you understand the difference between appropriate and inappropriate religious discussion, so I don't think you should be worried you won't be able to ever mention religion at work.

I never used the word "persecuted". Persecution is what happens to believers in China not rebukes I get here. And yes, I have had people get uptight about the mere mention of Jesus in a conversation. Some people think any mention of the name of Jesus outside of church is meant to try to convert them.

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Specializes in Cardiac Care, ICU.
It's too bad that you perceive my thoughts and feelings as "looking for offense."

For years, I've seen literature from Evangelical circles and heard statements from several Evangelical mega pastors that people reject Christianity because they have been 'hurt by Christians.' So there is more behind those words than first glance, to the uninitiated. It is a common conversation among many Evangelicals, the 'hurt by Christians' talk. Besides, it is assuming what you do not know.

Hearing those words is like saying, "You would believe, except for being hurt by the messengers." It can be disrespectful towards those who believe otherwise -for reasons than have to do with the message and not the messengers.

You are also reading into those pamphlets if they are like the ones I've seen. They are a rebuke to Christians for being offensive and making people antagonistic towards Christ. Unfortunately He is often judged by the actions of his imperfect children

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I never used the word "persecuted". Persecution is what happens to believers in China not rebukes I get here. And yes, I have had people get uptight about the mere mention of Jesus in a conversation. Some people think any mention of the name of Jesus outside of church is meant to try to convert them.

I picked the word persecuted in response to a posting about being banned from mentionning religion at all. I reallydon't think the rules are any different for non-believers. People get uptight about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean anyone is forced to bend to their will. You can still speak your mind mostly, though a little bit of mutual respect goes a long way in my experience. I would never dream of going to work and discussing my non-religiousness even though it's a part of who I am, just as your faith is a part of who you are. I don't do that because I know it will make people uncomfortable and I'm capable of holding my tongue for 12 hours at a time.

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Her patients are in a vulnerable position and she is taking advantage of the situation to proselytize. Patients are sometimes too uncomfortable or in some way limited to protest. Their significant others may make decisions based on their own beliefs, not the patients. It just isn't right.

This nurse's intentions may be good, but it is still unethical. The yoga and Earth Day comparisons make no sense; she's going to hospice to work with terminally ill patients. It is very clearly not their lives here on earth that she believes conversion to Jesus will impact.

I agree totally.

I worked at a hospice unit with a nurse who often "witnessed" to her pts. Several pts brought it up to me that they were uncomfortable with it, but did not want to risk upsetting the nurse or jeopardize their care from her.

I told each pt I would speak to my mgr about their concerns, but each of them told me not to, as they were afraid of the consequences.

Only when the patient brings up the subject of religeon is it appropriate to discuss it w/ a pt- and it's never appropriate to try to convert or "save" a pt.

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Specializes in Cardiac Care, ICU.
I picked the word persecuted in response to a posting about being banned from mentionning religion at all. I reallydon't think the rules are any different for non-believers. People get uptight about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean anyone is forced to bend to their will. You can still speak your mind mostly, though a little bit of mutual respect goes a long way in my experience. I would never dream of going to work and discussing my non-religiousness even though it's a part of who I am, just as your faith is a part of who you are. I don't do that because I know it will make people uncomfortable and I'm capable of holding my tongue for 12 hours at a time.

Have you ever talked about a great weekend (like I talked about a chuch retreat I went on one weekend). Have you ever used the name of the Lord as an exclamation (as I have said Jesus blessed me by __). Have you ever talked about the great time you had w/ your friends Sun. (as I have talked about what a great time I had at church on Sun.). Have you ever talked about a trip you have been on (as I have talked about medical mission trips I have been on w/ my church).

If none of this applies to you then I am not talking to you. But for most your "religiousness" or "non-religiousness" is part of who you are and it influences all areas of your life. It is impossible for me to not talk about it when it is part of my whole life. Icouldn't talk about my husband, we met in Sun. school, his mom is a church sec., we teach church nursery together. etc. Ican't talk about my kids education, I home school under the umbrella of my church. I can't talk about my vacations, we usually go somewhere w/ the church or w/ friends from the church. I'm sorry if I bring up my "religiousness" it just finds its way into so many areas of my life.

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Specializes in Med-Surg.
Have you ever talked about a great weekend (like I talked about a chuch retreat I went on one weekend). Have you ever used the name of the Lord as an exclamation (as I have said Jesus blessed me by __). Have you ever talked about the great time you had w/ your friends Sun. (as I have talked about what a great time I had at church on Sun.). Have you ever talked about a trip you have been on (as I have talked about medical mission trips I have been on w/ my church).

If none of this applies to you then I am not talking to you. But for most your "religiousness" or "non-religiousness" is part of who you are and it influences all areas of your life. It is impossible for me to not talk about it when it is part of my whole life. Icouldn't talk about my husband, we met in Sun. school, his mom is a church sec., we teach church nursery together. etc. Ican't talk about my kids education, I home school under the umbrella of my church. I can't talk about my vacations, we usually go somewhere w/ the church or w/ friends from the church. I'm sorry if I bring up my "religiousness" it just finds its way into so many areas of my life.

Many many people speak as you do about what goes on in their life. I work with quite a bit of people that are frequently saying things like "the Lord has blessed me today........." etc. and Monday is a recount of church. So much so people rarely take notice.

This is why when I read statements like "it's so hard to be a Christian these days. in America.......", "why is that the mere mention of Jesus is a federal offense", "why does it seem like every time Christ's name is mentioned, it gets taken out of context, people accuse you of preaching to them, claims that it is wrong and bans us from discussing it? Doesn't seem quite right. But, that is how we have been treated for thousands of years, and how we will continue to be treated. I just wonder what non believers would do if they were treated the same as what we have been."................etc. when Christianity is alive and well and the fabric of our society and we hear about God and Jesus day in and day out from the President to the housekeeper.

Let one person take offense at what a Christian says and does and it's blown out of context and Christians cry persecution (my word). I am sure it hurts some Christians that in the past generation they've seen non-Christians rise against them, but to me it's a good thing. Otherwise I fear the evangelecals among them would make the Bible the constitution . They've done quite well in the Republican party and have the ear of the President, and some of us need to keep them in check. :)

All and all it's still quite easy to be a Christian. Sometimes Christians do cross a lline however, and sometime non-Christians need to chill and give them a break.

Sorry I went off on a tangent, this wasn't targeted at you specifically, just babble that your started me toward. LOL Take it with a grain of salt. :)

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