"The Jesus Factor"

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A collegue of mine in the ICU is soon moving to Home Health for several reasons, both personal and otherwise. At the nurses station the other day, she and one of the doctors were talking, and she mentioned to him, regarding one of his patients, that "The Jesus factor was all squared away". This co-worker is a very active Christian and so is the MD in question. I asked her what that meant and she said that she liked to make sure where people were going when they die. She said that that was one reason why she wanted to do home health and hospice, was to help people find Jesus before they die.

She is an awesome, awesome nurse, but I was always thought that this is not ethical. I would never discuss religion with a patient unless they wanted to and I don't think it's correct to try to convert them. She's basically going to be evangelizing her Home Health patients. I find that disturbing.

If someone goes there to work, and ends up talking with people about God, what is the problem?
If the patient initiates the conversation, and the nurse follows the patient's lead, nothing.

Most of the people there know that they are in hospice for 1 reason: to die. And hospice is where a lot of people end up becoming a Christian.

I'm not even sure how to respond to this...

Wow.

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Specializes in Cardiac Care, ICU.
I've seen inappropriate behavior by nurses concerning religion/religious activities in every area I've worked. I am very careful to limit my talk concerning this subject with my patients and usually only talk about religion if they bring up the subject. Recently I was a patient in a religious affiliated hospital, very, very, sick and was very uncomfortable when a hospital volunteer came in to innocently ask me if I had any religious needs. I just felt that I didn't have enough energy to be dealing with this, even though the girl was polite. I can imagine what someone as sick as I was would have felt like if they were of a different faith and thought they were the subject of preaching.

Chances are high that your friend will get away with any behavior of this nature in home health unless she encounters a patient/family who are offended enough to complain. As annoying as she may make herself, and as unprofessional as she may be in this regard, there are far worse things that the patients or their families can complain about.

Your friend really should consider going to work for a healthcare entity that is affiliated with her religion. She would be happier there and more accepted. JMHO.

You were offended b/c you were asked if you had any religious needs while you were in a religiously affiliated hosp.? They didn't force religious material on you or insist you attend chappel or make you answer questions about your beliefs: they simply asked you if you had a need they could meet? I see why you're upset. I'm not accusing but sometimes people get upset by the mere fact that someone is a Christian.

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Specializes in Cardiac Care, ICU.
It concerns me that a nurse would so proudly forgo ethics to share the word with patients (though I wouldn't call it unethical if the patient asks for it)... I would caution you to be certain you know someone wants to hear your religious opinions before sharing them. Offending patients by being pushy about your religious beliefs doesn't go over well anywhere, even in Catholic hospitals. They are businesses too.

Personally, I am so over it. IMO it should be obvious that it isn't ok to proselytize, but that it is ok to have discussions about religion that patients direct. That's just basic manners.

Just a nit-picky observation. She actually wouldn't be forgoing her ethics, just the institutions. personal and proffessional ethics are not necessarily the same thing.

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Specializes in Home Health.

Years ago I was in a conversation with a CNA and I stated I was Catholic. She knew I was freinds with a nurse from another floor who was a outspoken christian. She asked me if the other nurse knew. I laughed and said what difference does it make what religion I am. We actually worked in a Catholic hospital although much of the staff was not Catholic. This CNA went and brought this other nurse back to our floor to talk to me. She asked me if I was Catholic and I said yes. She then said "I'm sorry I won't see you in heaven" I just smile and said "why, you won't be there?" Told her to have a nice day and never did figure out what the CNA meant to accomplish by that. It never acurred to me she might say the same thing to a patient. I think you should be there for your patients no matter what their belief is and follow their directions.

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I'm not even sure how to respond to this...

Wow.

in my 11 yrs as a hospice nurse, this is simply not true.

yes, there is much spiritual distress between the religious and non-religious.

but a very small percentage have actually found Jesus right before they die.

these people needed to believe something.

desperate times....

leslie

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in my 11 yrs as a hospice nurse, this is simply not true.

yes, there is much spiritual distress between the religious and non-religious.

but a very small percentage have actually found Jesus right before they die.

these people needed to believe something.

desperate times....

leslie

Thank you. I was hoping you'd weigh in on that one. I was speechless...

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Specializes in ER OB NICU.

Does the phrase "Suspicious Minds" come to mind? (sorry nothing against Elvis and his big hit) As previouisly said, this is a passionate subject, and another that we will not resolve to everybody's satisfaction.

Hospice nursing is for a special kind of nurse, as is Labor and delivery, ER, PACU, and every other speciality. As a Delivery nurse I NEVER failed to marvel at the miracle of birth, EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM, that is what determines the truly passionate delivery nurse, who can coax and encourage, the defeated, exhausted, laboring mom to that beautiful moment of birth, that resulted from not giving up and believing in herself and her ability. That moment of PURE uninhibited love when Mom catches that first glimpse or hears that first whimper is beyond words, but at the same time universal, it has no barriers to race, religious preference, economy, etc. IT IS PURE. In hospice nursing, the matter of impending death, is , ( however gruesome it is to read or state) a pre requisite for a hospice nurse. Early in my career, I had a calling to want to be that hospice nurse, but I (ridiculous as it may sound) did not have the time or strength and conviction to be the hospice nurse I would want to be, and still be the MOM, wife, daughter, and all the other roles of a parent (trying to choose my gender words carefully) that were ongoing in my life at the time. I did not want to be restricted by schedules, whether they be family, work, or self enforced. I appreciate those who can, and do, give so selflessly of themselves to guide their patients to eternity. In the case of the nurse who has lived their lives in accordance with their religious beliefs, I can see where it would be that that guidance would take the form of their own beliefs and convictions but AS a nurse, and care giver, we have to substitue what makes the patient comfortable on this journey. I do think this is one area of nursing where religious conviction could be of great assistance to patients, and feel that they will guide us to participate in their own needs based direction. A long life devoted Christian not only needs but craves that understanding of their acceptance of "God's will" and their reward. Their soul is all they have left when their body deserts them, and that soul needs to be at peace.

Again this is a subject that , although it does have some instituion or employer based limitations, that is more passionate for the true believers and non believers. They are the ones who would be most affected by the opposite spectrum. Not those of us still in the middle.

IT is amazing how unimportant everything else becomes when our physical life comes to an end. Whether it is from fear of the unknown, or a last ditch effort to save their soul, even if they aren't sure that there is a God, many will turn to prayer and NEED forgiveness before they pass. I can't grant them that,and I an not sure that at that point, it possible to change your whole life's beliefs , but am sure that it is necessary for their peace of mind.

I was raised a "church Christian",for lack of a better term. I would explain that as I attended church and Sunday School, and participated in church activities, but wasn't always guided in my everyday life to always show Christain principles,if that makes sense. I'm not always the kind, understanding soul, I would like to be. I fly off the handle, I do things I regret, there are people I have hurt, sometimes intentionally, and there are decisions I know don't reflect all I have been taught.I can't quote bibilical scripture for every occasion. BUT ,on the other hand, I don't believe that if you don't accept Christ as your personal saviour in front of a church congregation that you will go to He**, or that Christians can't marry Catholics, or Jews, etc. I just am not at the extreme for this, and that is a personal level I probably have not taken the time to resolve for myself. There are too many miracles for there not to be some type of divine intervention. At the same time, too many innocent children starve to death everyday.

For me that saying :"only the good die young" is a direct contradiction of its own. Helping a parent cope with the death of a child takes more than a understanding, non judgemental nurse. I am thankful everyday there are those who have the ability to comfort these patients, and their families. Those of you have worked with children , I m sure,are as amazed as I have been at their perception of death . Their coping skills haven't had the years we usually have to develop, yet they have an innate comprehension, and are somehow able to find inner peace, and, in doing so, put those who care for them,parents and nurses alike, at ease. They GIVE us permission to grieve. (forgive me for diversing.

Often times it is that special physical touch that releases our patients. A calm, repetitive stroking of their shoulder, forearms, holding hands, whatever. Especially in patients who see themselves as non deserving,or with a disease process that make them undesirable.

I would not ask anybody to deny their faith , race, gender, etc. All are part of what makes them a good nurse. There is a place for each of us, that takes all our strengths and weaknesses into consideration.To find that special niche, is of itself, remarkable. Sharing one's self,heart, knowledge, beliefs is just that ShARING,not imposing. The one time I would see a problem is if the nurse initiates and imposes her own beliefs on a patient,as that changes the direction of nursing,and offends and prohibits patients from obtaining what they need, and finding their own peace. GUIDANCE ACCEPTANCE, NOT IMPOSITION.I have been at bedsides, where I could feel the presence of the spirit release and soaring to eternity. I have felt the patient take that last breath and attain inner peace. It comes from somewhere, and for those who help patients or the patients' beliefs, or maybe even exhaustion, something gives them that release. I may not agree with your own beliefs,but I respect that you believe.

One hint I have found is that MUSIC is an almost universal comfort to all ages. (as long as it is personally fitted ). It gives you the freedom of association to what you feel and hear, as well as memories ( from oldies) of your youth, songs that fill your heart, and just those that cut you loose, and the words you haven't thought about for decades come flowing back. OR the instrumentals that just feel the void .

just FYI, as I have read these passionate, persona:idea:l expressions from my fellow nurses, I thought about how many times a day I hear the expression:"THANK GOD", usually not in a religious perspective. Makes you think HUH?

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I am a Christian (a sleepy one so lets see if I say this right), and I am only a student nurse at this time. But I have came into contact with many patients and to be honest I'm not sure what they believe in-- if anything. I dont find it ethical to "push" my beliefs on any patient EVER! I dont even find myself to be less Christian than someone who would. If for some reason "I" was not satisfied with something then I guess I would pray (alone, at home) for the patient. I would never force a patient to pray with me or to even discuss it with me. Because again it would be "my" problem not theirs. And we are supposed to be there for "them" right?

It is not a therapeutic relationship if the nurse has to fill a need from the interactions. Client centered right? It sounds to me that this nurse wants to fill her need of wanting this person to believe in God-- and not the patients need of believing. (nurse centered-not client centered)

If a patient felt stressed and pressured to all of a sudden start believing in God when they were sick then I think thats terrible! Honestly, I dont want someone to fear my God so much that they dont really believe. I think that would turn them away rather than start a relationship. I think that in good health and their own choosing would create a more meaningful relationship with God. If you feel the need to put God in their last breaths then pray solo.

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It is not a therapeutic relationship if the nurse has to fill a need from the interactions. Client centered right? It sounds to me that this nurse wants to fill her need of wanting this person to believe in God-- and not the patients need of believing. (nurse centered-not client centered)

Well said. One of the most succinct and to the point posts on this thread.
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Most of the people there know that they are in hospice for 1 reason: to die. And hospice is where a lot of people end up becoming a Christian.

I'm not even sure how to respond to this...

Wow.

I am interested to know why the above statement, that you quoted, affects you this way............?

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I am interested to know why the above statement, that you quoted, affects you this way............?
First of all, I think that is an incorrect, or rather, simplistic view of the purpose of hospice care. Yes, patients who are in hospice are coming to the end of their life. But I strongly disagree with the statement that "they are in hospice for 1 reason: to die".

And as leslie pointed out, from her experience, the second part of that statement isn't true either. I've never worked hospice, but have worked closely with hospice nurses and caretakers and have cared for hospice clients; my mother was also a client of our hospice. Purely anecdotal, to be sure, but I believe that statement to be false as well.

To clarify, I have seen dying patients return to their religious roots in an effort to achieve spiritual peace, but as far as death-bed conversions? No, not really.

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Specializes in ER OB NICU.

I think, again,that the key here is support of the patient, whether it be answering their questions, holding their hand, or praying with them at their request. "Finding God"/faith with your last minutes of physical life is not even possible, in my own opinion. I always had trouble with that , that all of a sudden, you can ask for and receive forgiveness and eternal life. BUT THAT IS A PERSONAL PROBLEM.I just strive, to the best of my ability and understanding, to provide what the patient needs and wants of me tobe able to die peacefully without fear,not alone, free from judgement and with my support to the end.

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