"The Jesus Factor"

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A collegue of mine in the ICU is soon moving to Home Health for several reasons, both personal and otherwise. At the nurses station the other day, she and one of the doctors were talking, and she mentioned to him, regarding one of his patients, that "The Jesus factor was all squared away". This co-worker is a very active Christian and so is the MD in question. I asked her what that meant and she said that she liked to make sure where people were going when they die. She said that that was one reason why she wanted to do home health and hospice, was to help people find Jesus before they die.

She is an awesome, awesome nurse, but I was always thought that this is not ethical. I would never discuss religion with a patient unless they wanted to and I don't think it's correct to try to convert them. She's basically going to be evangelizing her Home Health patients. I find that disturbing.

Specializes in Community Health, Med-Surg, Home Health.

Great deal of passion in this thread. Clearly, this is a need for the nurse, not the patient. I have seen many medical professionals with their own agendas, religion being one of them. I think religion should be left out of the equation, unless the patient requests it. I am open to hear about the many faiths that people have and my personal faith tells me that there are many roads to lead to the Godspace.

But to place fear and guilt in the patient is not fair. A patient may very well feel that if they speak their minds, this would cause a negative impact on their care. A situation happened once where a Christian nurse did not want to care for a client that had a second trimester abortion. Our ethics committee states that a nurse that does not believe in abortion has the right not to participate in the actual procedure (makes sense to me), but, has an obligation to care for the client AFTER the procedure. My friend was a nursing supervisor, who, wrote that nurse up because she did not care for the patient. I thought that was fair...this nurse was using her own personal judgement on the client which, could have lead to an unsafe situation if the patient went into crisis.

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Specializes in LTC, Med/Surg, Peds, ICU, Tele.

In the case of my collegue, I think the situation is emotionally complex for her. I feel that her motives are mixed, as most people's are which spur them to action. Most people only voice the more noble intentions they hold, but leave unsaid their more selfish ones, which they may not acknowledge even to themselves in their conscious mind.

The Church she goes to is her main souce of social gratification and winning souls is a big part of how they get their affirmation, in my view. This lady goes to prayer retreats, and has even gone to a special seminar on how to pray with patients, which she traveled to Florida with a friend from her church to attend. She is part of the worship team at her church too. She is around 40 and for some reason has never been married, so that is a source of disappointment for her.

She is a very compassionate and highly skilled nurse, and I respect her very much, but I don't agree with what she's doing here.

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Pagandeva2000 Really Sums This Whole Topic Up. Once Personal Religion Comes Into Play Which Really Is Happening Among Professionals More And More, The Patient Is Not Really First Anymore. Her Story Really Shows You How One Of The Most Important Things Is To Be A Good Nurse And Take Care Of Your Patients Health Needs Above All Else. Second To Be Compassionate In Their Hour Of Need.

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Specializes in Cardiac Care, ICU.
I think if a patient brings it up, and you the nurse are on the same page, a conversation about religious beliefs isn't necessarily inappropriate. But there is something very unsettling to me about a nurse who has a personal goal of ensuring a patient accepts Christian faith before they die--I will never be a Christian myself, and if I were on my deathbed I think I'd find it quite discomfiting if I got wind that my nurse believed that I was going to hell. :devil::uhoh3:

Any Christian nurse who would tell a pt they are going to hell should check her/his spiritual pulse. Jesus tells us to speak the truth in love. You can't scare someone in to belief in Jesus. I would say what it does take but I don't want to be accused of prosyltizing :). Unfortunatly there are those who will continue to tell somebody something they obviously don't want to hear and a nurse who does this is out of line. But it would be wrong to say all nurses should never talk about (fill in the blank) b/c Nurse Clueless abused her privilege. Some pts are comforted when nurses pray w/ them and take care of their spiritual needs (as the pt directs). I have Muslim friends and if I ask them a question and they give me an answer that reflects their Muslim beliefs it's b/c they're Muslim, not b/c they are trying to convert me to a belief in Islam (though I'm sure at least some of them would be delighted if that happened). Also, I know they think I am an infidel destined for hell :devil:, but they like me and treat me w/ respect anyway and that's all that matters to me. Please don't be offended that a Christian thinks you're going to hell (by Christian definition it's the separation from God), it's not b/c s/he thinks s/he is better than you ( "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" ) it is b/c they sincerly believe there are certain things that must be done to go to heaven.

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Specializes in ER OB NICU.

I have never promoted or denied my patients spirituality. I have often been the person at bedside, that is with a dying patient, who seems to be struggling for permission to "go". I have watched patients look to a corner, and see their long dead mother and say "I am coming momma , wait for me." Or those who see their "saviour" and say: " I'm coming Jesus, with a huge smile across their previous weary, weak face.

It is not up to me to decide the journey they have chosen to take with their soul or for eternity .IT IS UP TO ME TO SUPPORT them in the journey they have chosen to embark on. BE it based on their religious beliefs, physiology, or wherever and however their soul chooses to lead.

Many will say 'I want to go in my sleep, like grandma did, just go to sleep and not wake up". For those with a strong spiritual being, who have felt that their lives have been guided by their faith, they seem to need their God to welcome them to eternity. For others departing their physical being and life, they need permission to let go and move on, wherever that may be. Perhaps they have not resolved their Ericksons' stages, and have regrets, aren't comfortable with their live accomplishments. We have all seen somebody hang on for however long it takes for that special family member to travel to their bedside, and just be there before they let go. Because of the limitations and expectations of a purely physical universe, it has always seemed to me that a higher form, that perhaps I can not explain, or understand, must be in existence, if only in our souls. It is not up to me to label beliefs. I would not impose my personal beliefs about my soul and its eternity than I would to to contradict the patients unfounded belief in their physican, that I know to be a pure egotistical, uncaring. ****. IT is THAT belief that leads to a rewarding relationship.

Many are more comfortable than others, sharing those thoughts of Christianity and offering patients the conviction of their personal beliefs. Some surgeons offer prayer with the patient and family member before they go to surgery. Others believe that the patient is in their hands. Some resent patients who say "God was with you."

Each of us have to find that level of comfort that lets each of us function within are own personal beliefs, and as nurses we support patients, non judgementally, in their own decisions as their lives come to a close.

Perhaps the original nurse involved in this post, is not into promoting her own beliefs of Christianity as much as, being able to have the time to stay with a patient till the end, not be in and out of the room, tending to five other patients. Perhaps she just wants to be one on one with her patients. That is why there are so many options in nursing, and a place for each of us.

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Specializes in LTC, Med/Surg, Peds, ICU, Tele.

This is a very interesting discussion, all of these differnet perspectives are really helping me understand this issue.

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Specializes in Neuro.
i can't belive that so many people in this thread support what the nurse described in the op is doing! it is not even close to be ethical.

a friend of mine used to work in home health/hospice, and she was a christian who was proud to announce to all that she was. after all, the bible says to "...go and make disciples of all nations..." jesus commands christians to go and tell others the good news, according to matthew 28:18. my friend would let others know that she was there to comfort and care for them in their last days, and that she would pray for them. she did not force herself on anybody, but she did let them know that if they needed her, she was there. i personally think that the person the op was talking about probably felt the same, and, as a christian, if we can minister to just 1 person and bring them to god before they die, then it is all worth it.

while i don't think that it is ethical to "preach" to someone in the hospital per se, i do think that it takes someone really special and with a heart of god to work in hospice, having to deal with death and all. most of the people there know that they are in hospice for 1 reason: to die. and hospice is where a lot of people end up becoming a christian. if someone goes there to work, and ends up talking with people about god, what is the problem? i doubt that this person is trying to shove him down anybody's throat. but with my friend, she had many, many families thanking her for her work, for praying with patient and for also leading patients to christ.

i look forward to being the same way when i graduate. i by no means plan on preaching to my patients, but, i will let them know that i will pray for them and am there if they need someone to talk to.

as we can all see from the number of postings on this thread, this is a very, very touchy subject. always had been, always will. but, that does not mean that i will hold my opinions to myself. so many people say that it is wrong, that it is unethical to talk about christianity in the workplace. but if a patient is needing that comfort and asks for it, i will forgo ethics every time to talk to them about jesus!

if i were aware of a nurse practicing like that, i would be reporting her to the administration and would be considering reporting her to the board of nursing

i guess i am thankful that the hospital i plan on working at is a catholic based hospital. i don't see myself getting into too much trouble for being a christian, if you happen to report me!

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It concerns me that a nurse would so proudly forgo ethics to share the word with patients (though I wouldn't call it unethical if the patient asks for it)... I would caution you to be certain you know someone wants to hear your religious opinions before sharing them. Offending patients by being pushy about your religious beliefs doesn't go over well anywhere, even in Catholic hospitals. They are businesses too.

Personally, I am so over it. IMO it should be obvious that it isn't ok to proselytize, but that it is ok to have discussions about religion that patients direct. That's just basic manners.

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Specializes in Cardiac Care, ICU.
So, just out of curiosity, if she had a patient that were Jewish or Muslim, would she feel it's her duty to "set them straight"? Because THAT is totally unethical and she should have her nursing license revoked for that. We as RN's need to care for patients with respect to ALL religions no matter how much we may disagree with their beliefs.

I'm Jewish, and if my parents had a nurse that did the whole "jesus" routine on us...I would report her to an administrator and to the licensing board.

I agree w/ you. If someone of another religious faith tries to use a position of autority to convert you it is rude and unethical. Sometimes though when a Christian (or person of any other faith) answers in a "Christian" way it is not b/c they are trying to get you to convert it is just b/c they are what they are and it reflects in how they think and speak about things. For instance, if someone asks me why I became a nurse I will say that I felt God call me to nursing because that is what I believe. If they ask me what I mean I will give them the details, if they don't that is the end of the conversation. I don't tell people this b/c I want to try to start a conversation so I can convert them it is simply my answer to a question. If you were to ask me about a lot of things in my life I would very likely give God glory for them b/c I believe He enabled me to do them or I might exprress gratitude to Jesus for giving me comfort during hard times b/c I believe He did. I'm not trying to proseltyze, it is just who I am.

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Specializes in Cardiac Care, ICU.
So Jesus and Yoga are the same thing?

What if you had a close family member dying, a spouse or a child and I felt it my duty to mae sure that they had accepted powerfull Allah into their soul. Would you shrug it off as you are with Jesus?

And why do you equate someone who has a problem with religious proselytizing as an environmentalist or yoga practioner.

I was making the point that all people have thing in their lives which are important to them. Chistianity and the environment are important to me and yoga I though in b/c it has always seemed like a spiritually oriented exercise program to me. My point being if I am having a conversation w/ a pt and I invite a pt to an Earthday rally nobody would bat an eyelash but if I invited them to church w/ me I'm proselytizing. Neither invitation would be issued if the pt didn't express interest so why do people get all bent out of shape about one but not the other?

As far as someone trying to convert me to Islam (or Mormonism or JW, etc.) I would do what I have always done in the past. I say I am not interested, thank you. It does not offend me as long as it stops there.

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Specializes in Neuro.
it concerns me that a nurse would so proudly forgo ethics to share the word with patients (though i wouldn't call it unethical if the patient asks for it)... i would caution you to be certain you know someone wants to hear your religious opinions before sharing them. offending patients by being pushy about your religious beliefs doesn't go over well anywhere, even in catholic hospitals. they are businesses too.

hmm, fergus, i think you need to reread my post. i did not say that i would "proudly forgo ethics to share the word...and be pushy with my religious beliefs..."

i said, and i

...but with my friend, she had many, many families thanking her for her work, for praying with patient and for also leading patients to christ.

i look forward to being the same way when i graduate. i by no means plan on preaching to my patients, but, i will let them know that i will pray for them and am there if they need someone to talk to.

i was referring to the fact that my friend was an important part of her patients lives at the end and was thanked and appreciated for it. i have never "pushed" my religion on anyone, nor do i plan on doing it when i become a nurse. i respect the fact that not everyone feels the way thati do, and as i said above, if the patient asks, then, and only then, will i talk with them.

how is that? i reworded my previous post so maybe i would not be as misunderstood again.

btw, i am quite smart enough to know that you can't talk religion in most places, due to the fact that someone might get offended. but, if asked, i will talk about it in a heartbeat.

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Specializes in Cardiac Care, ICU.
But for my co-worker, a deathbed born again experience will save the patient from the fires of hell, so I think she thinks she is doing what is the right thing. In her belief system I think there's no way around this, the patient will go immediately to hell without some sort of acceptance of Jesus as savior. It puts my nurse friend in a awful spot. quote]

Yes...but your "nurse friend" is not in the awful spot, is she? Her "spot" is not the one in question (in the patient's viewpoint....and her/his viewpoint does Not count at this juncture). I think if we treat persons holistically...mind, body, spirit, we are doing our jobs. Our personal beliefs should not affect our patients. God is different to each of us individually. A nurse is not in a position to attempt to save her/his own soul regarding each/every individual's personal relationship with their own God. Rise above individualism!

Believing that Jesus is the way to heaven ("no man comes to the Father except by Him") does not put me in an "awful spot" I am obligated to tell anyone who will listen about Jesus but I am not obligated to make anyone listen. As CRNI-ICU20 said if they don't have ears to hear then I am thowing "pearls to swine" (not accusing anyone of being a pig, just using the Biblical illustration of the uselessness of witnessing to someone who does not want to hear.). If anyone expressed an interest in knowing more about Jesus I will gladly tell them, if not we can talk about something else. I have never attempted to convert any of my Muslim friends. If they ask me questions about Jesus I will answer them and when I have questions about Allah they answer me. We are not trying to convert each other we are having a conversation.

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