The Great Double Standard?

[Doog]

I would like opinions from the rest of you guys. It seems everywhere I turn that there is this double standard that men nurses should not be providing care for any of women's intimate needs. I am still in nursing school, but it seems women nurses have no problem caring for either a male or female patient (students included), but men do not have that ability? I just don't quite understand this, when it is not even the patients perogative involved, just these female nurses who think they know "whats best". I would like this taboo to dissappear. Does anyone else see this? Any ideas who to remedy this issue and be able to call a nurse a nurse, and not a male or female nurse, each playing by different rules. I am pretty frustrated.

[TDub, MSN, EdD]

Pretty sure-I've never had Vitamin V. I do tend to react that way to any downers, though. The first time I ever had Demeral, I told the nurse, "Man, if this was legal, I'd be an addict!"

[Ashera, LPN]

Had a female pt once - a very needy, prima donna that confused us with the Hilton.

Absolutely refused 'that black nurse' and wanted to make sure that no Jew came in her room because you know what 'they did' - and then she complained she couldn't understand the little Asian aide - and there was no way she was gonna let a man in to 'tend to her privates' - so pretty soon - she had run through the entire shift - and had called the hospital manager. His reponse was ' so leave her on the bedpan ' - of course we would not have done that - but the point is - there will always be a pt that prefers one nurse over the other - and to the best we can do - we should politely try to accommodate them. But there really comes a time when it's really hard not to come down to their level and do some really hard line pt education.

We were all very glad when she was discharged -

[Cul2]

FROM AsheraRe: The Great Double Standard?

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Had a female pt once - a very needy, prima donna that confused us with the Hilton.

Absolutely refused 'that black nurse' and wanted to make sure that no Jew came in her room because you know what 'they did' - and then she complained she couldn't understand the little Asian aide - and there was no way she was gonna let a man in to 'tend to her privates' - so pretty soon - she had run through the entire shift - and had called the hospital manager. His reponse was ' so leave her on the bedpan ' - of course we would not have done that - but the point is - there will always be a pt that prefers one nurse over the other - and to the best we can do - we should politely try to accommodate them. But there really comes a time when it's really hard not to come down to their level and do some really hard line pt education.

We were all very glad when she was discharged -

I'm sure she was a difficult patient, maybe even impossible. Bad patients happen. But for you to lump racial and religioius discrimination along with preference for same gender intimate care, shows a complete lack of understanding of, not only the law, but also psychology. Even the courts ruling on BFOQ cases separate these distinctions, justifying our individual rights of dignity regarding protecting the private areas of our bodies from opposite gender viewing.

[dialysisguy]

You should always take someone in with you to "assist". Two years ago a patient claimed to have been sexually assulted by a male nure at a local hospital. His word against his. Guys listen, men or women pt's don't matter... If you have to go down there for catheter, bath, whatever. Always have a witness with you!

DG

[Cul2]

You should always take someone in with you to "assist". Two years ago a patient claimed to have been sexually assulted by a male nure at a local hospital. His word against his. Guys listen, men or women pt's don't matter... If you have to go down there for catheter, bath, whatever. Always have a witness with you!

DG

Notice what you're saying here. You really want a witness and/or chaperone (which may be necessary and valid), but what I'm reading is that you're telling the patient you're bringing in someone to "assist." In my book, that's not ethical. If you feel you need a chaperone or witness, inform the patient. Patients do have choices in this regard. Be up front. If they refuse to have a chaperone, then you can refuse to do the procedure.

[wymnwise]

FROM AsheraRe: The Great Double Standard?

permalink

Had a female pt once - a very needy, prima donna that confused us with the Hilton.

Absolutely refused 'that black nurse' and wanted to make sure that no Jew came in her room because you know what 'they did' - and then she complained she couldn't understand the little Asian aide - and there was no way she was gonna let a man in to 'tend to her privates' - so pretty soon - she had run through the entire shift - and had called the hospital manager. His reponse was ' so leave her on the bedpan ' - of course we would not have done that - but the point is - there will always be a pt that prefers one nurse over the other - and to the best we can do - we should politely try to accommodate them. But there really comes a time when it's really hard not to come down to their level and do some really hard line pt education.

We were all very glad when she was discharged -

I'm sure she was a difficult patient, maybe even impossible. Bad patients happen. But for you to lump racial and religioius discrimination along with preference for same gender intimate care, shows a complete lack of understanding of, not only the law, but also psychology. Even the courts ruling on BFOQ cases separate these distinctions, justifying our individual rights of dignity regarding protecting the private areas of our bodies from opposite gender viewing.

Thanks I have been trying to make a point of this distinction in another string to no avail. Some folks just do not want to get it.

[tbrd450]

Just be consistent across genders. If you accommodate female requests for female (or male) caregivers, then accommodate male requests for male (or female) caregivers. It seems simple enough. However, a double standard does exist. As someone previously pointed out, a male patient who requested a male team was not accommodated. No shift changes were considered. Whereas, the concensus seems to be that the converse of that is always vehemently accommodated and pursued unless truly impossible. Why the double standard? Pragmatically speaking, probably because it is presumed that a lawsuit on the matter would only be coming from the female patient. Juries don't like to award men money for breaches of modesty -- considered frivolous.

[talaxandra]

Have males being nurses been common place in australia for some time? I thinking their maybe some cultural differences between there and here.

I don't know how long men have been in nursing here, but my former NUM is in his fifties - he was a midwife before moving into renal, was my manager for a decade, and was NUM at another hospital for around a decade before that, so it's been a while :)

As long as the patient's happy, I'm happy for the guys to do any care that I do. Just under half the doctors are men and few people seem to have an issue with them doing things 'down there' - I don't see why it should be so different for nurses.

[GM2RN]

i'm not a male nurse, but my husband is. i worked with him for 8 years before we married, and he consistently refused to take care of female patients "within my dating range." (roughly 10 years older than and 10 years younger than him.) if he did have to take care of a female in that age range or younger, he had a female nurse do the "intimate care" or had a female nurse, doctor, rt, cna or whoever present while he did it. he says it's just too easy to be accused of something inappropriate and too difficult defending against it.

it seems to be that males are less likely to accuse female nurse of inappropriate behavior -- and probably more likely to initiate the inappropriate behavior themselves, if my experience is any guide.

as a female, i don't have a problem with the occassional female patient asking for a female nurse. but i have a real problem with any male nurse going into the profession, knowing that intimate procedures will be required, and refusing to do them on a segment of the population just because they are men. i am not going to be happy if the male nurses that i work with are going to have me do all of the intimate stuff for their female patients, plus take care of my own assignment. this isn't any different than asking the male nurses to do all of the heavy lifting, which has been complained about on this forum. as far as i'm concerned, if you know that you aren't going to do certain types of care or procedures for your patients, you should find a different profession.

[GM2RN]

i can assure you, i would not let a male nurse do any sort of personal care on me.

even though i intellectually recognize that a male is just as qualified, it is an emotional response for me.

therefore it would not be gender discrimination.

as it wouldn't be for many people.

if a male pt expresses discomfort w/me, i do everything in my power to get a male nurse.

respect works both ways.

leslie

I get what you are saying, but at the same time, someone wanting a different nurse based on race could make the same "emotional response" argument.

[nursemike, ASN, RN]

As a female, I don't have a problem with the occassional female patient ASKING for a female nurse. but I have a real problem with any male nurse going into the profession, knowing that intimate procedures will be required, and refusing to do them on a segment of the population just because they are men. I am NOT going to be happy if the male nurses that I work with are going to have me do all of the intimate stuff for their female patients, plus take care of my own assignment. This isn't any different than asking the male nurses to do all of the heavy lifting, which has been complained about on this forum. As far as I'm concerned, if you know that you aren't going to do certain types of care or procedures for your patients, you should find a different profession.

I don't disagree, except that I have come to realize in the course of some other threads that it frequently isn't adequate to simply wait for the patient to ask for a female nurse. If the patient is responsive, I think it's necessary to explain what needs done and ask whether I can do it, and if I have any inkling they might prefer a female caregiver, offer to find one. What amazes me is how rarely it's a problem. I think, many times, just showing a sensitivity to their concerns alleves their concerns.

I suppose I'm an idiot, but I almost never take a witness. On our occassional peds, I generally won't do an assessment without their parent (or other guardian) present. Which is really dumb, in a way, since I'm waiting for a witness for the (potential) plaintiff. But the peds we get are walkie-talkies, so intimate care has never been an issue.

[Cul2]

I realize this is an old thread that's starting to open up again.

I did comment in it a 2 years ago. But reading it again, I came

across this comment:

'Try these on for size:

"I don't want a black nurse." not ok - racism

"I don't want a gay nurse." not ok - discrimination

"I don't want a male nurse." oh, that's understandable, and we'll try to accommodate your preferences

Why is it ok to discriminate based on gender, while it is horrible to discriminate based on other criteria?'

I was surprised and disappointed at the number of posters who

agreed with this line of reasoning. A few didn't, and that was good. Here's

why this line of reasoning is faulty:

How patients feel about gender care can be extremely contextual. It's

very often connected to specific procedures and exams. A woman, for

example, who refuses to have a male nurse take her blood pressure because

she thinks that men are just not capable of being nurses -- this women is

prejudiced and practicing gender discrimination. Same with a male patient

who refuses, for example, to let a female nurse take his oral temperature

because he thinks women are incompetent. That's discrimination.

But a male or female patient, who normally would let the opposite gender

do non intimate, non invasive procedures like the two I mentioned above, --

but who doesnpt want opposite gender care for, let's say, a testicular sonogram

or a lady partsl exam, these people are not prejudiced and not practicing gender

discrimination. Thise choices are directly related to patient dignity, respect,

values, cultures, etc. As most of you have indicated, these choices must be

respected. Patients who don't want a Black or Hispanic nurses, regardless of gender,

for anything because they think the race (or gender) is incapable of doing the

job) these patients are prejudiced and racist. See the difference?

I do want note one other comment on this thread: "It seems to be that males

are less likely to accuse female nurses of inappropriate behavior -- and probably

more likely to initiate the inappropriate behavior themselves, if my experience is

any guide." First, I think probably, just as many women exhibit the similiar inappropraite

behaviors with male nurses and doctors. Women communicate differently.

They're more subtlier, and have different, less overt stratigies

than men. And men respond differently than women do.

I would suggest that male nurses and doctors know this and just don't talk

about it very much. Perhaps they feel less physical threat, yet there is more threat

to their careers than for female caregivers. Even mentioning it or joking about it

could get them into trouble. Second, some men are just jerks (like

some women). If they practice sexual harassment in the hospital they probably do

it outside the hospital, too. Third, most men won't speak up when they're embarrassed

and ask for same gender care. Some of these men, because of their humiliation and

embarrassment, may lash out at the female nurse, or make some crude comments, to

cover their embarrassment and humiliation. I'm not saying it's right. But that may be

what's happening. I've actually found this mentioned in some studies, with the suggestion

that this situation be studied studied more. I don't think it has been.

Anyway, this has been and apparently cont9inues to be a stimulating discussion.