wymnwise

"I have been told not to tell a pt. about mistakes made by the doctor. I had a doctor once make a mistake concerning a surgery, but I never told the pt since I felt it was the MD's responsibility to explain it." Hmmm. If the doc does not tell; you should.

This is why hospitals should make it a point to keep an appropriate gender balance in emergency and surgical, PACU, situations. So, women will not be harmed or avoid care. It is about the patient, not care providers. Now, I would say, just insist on a family member's presence if you are not comfortable. If the provider is a jerk about it; ask for another, even if it will be another male. Honestly, many men (about 40%) are non-threatening. When you need surgery, or other care; try to avoid hospitals and go to specialty care clinics. This has b/c more common for cancer, for example. Work now to reform laws before you need those laws to be in place. We need better informed consent laws. There are good drafts out there, including by the ANA. They are just not followed very consistently, and rarely once a patient is sedated.

Well, that is obvious as women have been forced for generations to suffer nothing but male care. I just want to be told the truth, respectfully asked about training, and given some control and choices over providers and situations. When women are available for intimate procedures I prefer them and do not mind the wait in a non-emergency context. I want to be informed of any training and asked specific consent. I may if introduced and properly asked be willing to help train a small group (2 or 3), but not while I am sedated. I do not ever want to be left alone with a male or males while under anesthesia, or at least that was the rule, now I am not willing to be sedated without a family member present. Why? Well, practice exams, bait and switch operations, and repeatedly being left alone with men under anesthesia over objections. My postion is not unreasonable nor irrational. Charges of such is simply abusive.

Well, I can see it is you that has the issues. I have one issue, justice in the form of patient rights and autonomy. You on the other hand have a host of issues. You refuse to admit that women are being assaulted in hospitals; that hospitals refusal to provide women under anesthesia adequate protection while also refusing to respect dignity or autonomy, and this has everything to do with the fact that women are being raped in hospitals. You refuse to take the history of most women, not rape, but sexual harassment, giving them every reason not to trust strange men, into account. You cover you eyes b/c you do not want to see. Do not assume every experience to which I refer is my own. The clinic gang teaching was done by a gang of white students and a white doc to a black woman. She was shaking and crying by the time it was over. This was told to me by one of the female medical students. Then I read a similar story written by another woman and realized I had escaped the experience. I went to a clinic like this once in my life. I was a young single mother. No, not a free clinic, just a woman's clinic in the MW. After being asked if I had anything else to do that afternoon, and not knowing enough to say "LOTS", she then told me the deal, "a couple of nursing students", I asked if there were males, she said a couple I refused it was over. After hearing a couple of stories from women who did not ask the second question, I was glad I asked. So, no not my experience; but could have been, save I am not African American. So, see now you see a case where both race and gender mattered, no? NO, never mind, I forgot, you do not listen you just degrade. That is how I knew you were Republican. The days of the large public hospitals are over. Teaching hospitals, at least the monster of one in our state have cut deals and placed students in many hospitals in a three state area, many city clinics and even at rural clinics. Not just poor patients, but ALL patients are subjected to the abuse. Does $$$ make a difference. Yes, the more $$$ you have to file a lawsuit them the more they take care not to abuse, or at least make sure you do not remember. It is true when we were young it was the "public" patient taking most of the abuse; not true today. So, do you all have a special all female team for a rape patient that comes into O.R. as one nurse posted here hosp. does?

Male nurse in earlier quote. "Well, my dear fellas, I've been circulating in a surgery room hearing meds and technicians pondering the nice teats, beautiful body and so on... of a 23 year old female pt." Ok, this is my final point. Female nurses/med students (and some men) suffer sexual harassment not only from patients, but also from Docs, other nurses,... In fact, it seems as bad as this is in the culture at large, it seems to be worse in hospitals. There is no good reason to think that a man that acts like a pig, will not act out on a sedated patient. I know you all do not like to admit this, hate it when someone is caught and it is published. Work together to cover up offenses. Then turn around and demand that women who make gender specific requests are "irrational" "unrealistic" ..... well it is more abuse. Also, it is one of so many of your responses that tend to parallel those of abusers outside the medical setting.

Hmmm. To bad he did not have a female assist. Why are the docs protected but not the nurses?

It is true. Gender matters. It is a difference that makes a difference. Problem, gender is a social construct, real, but still cultural. Therefore, one cannot assume a universal gender reaction. Thus, be sensitive to gender, ethnic groups, and such and just ASK.

hmmm. So this is in E.R.? Perhaps what is "unrealistic" is thinking one can go on acting like men and women are the SAME, that gender differences do not make a difference and not expect to have a problem sooner or latter.

I think you have every reason for concern. The first reason should be that some of the women may not like it. What to do? Just very politely ask the women first and respect their answer. Do that and you should have no problem. Listen to an insensitive doc more than the patient and you both have problems.

Hmmm. I ask for very little care, and do whatever I can for myself. Hell, nurses tell me, "hey we are supposed to do that for you." when I go get my own drink from the dinning hall. On the other hand if I had a nurse who had your attitude; I would demand another nurse, and yes he could be male (if I liked him better) so long as I was not sedated. For a non-emergency sedated procedure, I would not allow most men, and certainly not you. I want people who respect my autonomy rather than look at it as a nuisance. 1. I was talking more about surgery and clinic than E.R. I assume foley training goes on pre surgery not E.R. 2. I allow exceptions or true emerg. as does the laws on informed consent, and I have said so, before. 3. MY husband worked E.R. and still every effort was made to be sensitive Unrealistic expectations are often a result of medical provider propaganda and lies. (again not talkin' about E.R.) If a surgical patients request for female staff is unrealistic, there is plenty of time (in non emergency situations) to adjust those expectations. FACTS: 1. Women are being lied to about who, how many, and what will be done to them in O.R. 2. Women in clinics are often asked for consent for "a couple of nursing students" to "observe" an exam. Then six, eight or more medical/nursing students are brought into the room (often most men) to learn and practice breast, pelvic, and rectal exams each one in turn. This lack of fully informed consent for intimate exams leaves women with trauma so similar to rape they call it "medical rape". Rather than listen so many in the field chose to degrade the women further. It is quite simply patient abuse. I am not saying every clinic and hospital are doing this sort of thing, but enough do it that women are upset and organizing, already forced through one law about practice exams. Again, not a perfect law, but a start. I understand unrestricted access to our bodies without informing us of what you were doing had been a privilege of the medical profession for some time. Practice exams on sedated women has gone on for centuries. But, in the absence of consent it is wrong. So, to the woman asking the original question. If your training this male to do the foley was done without this sedated woman's consent, your instinct is correct, it is like RAPE. Did she give consent? Unless she was verbally informed of trainee participation, and consented, then no it is not informed consent. Was it a bad thing to do? Well, when you do not seek her expressed consent, then how bad it was to do depends on how she would feel about it if she knew? If she were to find out, how would she feel about it? Given she has a right to know who touches her, and a right to determine who touches her, the determination of how bad it was has to be filtered through her perspective. Look, if all this training is so harmless, why don't all you nurses let the students train on you, your daughters, mothers, wifes?

" Sometimes experiences are what you make of them. It doesn't do anybody any good to only continually emphasize the negative." Hmmm. This statement says more about you than me. Just B.S. for rationalizing apathy, or a love of the status quo. Negation of a negative is a positive. That is, changing a wrong is right does us all good, save perhaps those benefiting from the wrong. You must be a Republican. I was answering a question about the exam; my concern with medical care is broader than an entrance physical. Just answering the question. I have always found that one who responds to one expressing an injustice, with will I have never been treated that way so it must be you, is well, like I said, your response indicated more about you than me. Regarding CXR USAF, '75, I remember b/c it was my first and I questioned the effects. It took some talking to get me to go along. Perhaps it was one of those lab rat things. It was the first but not the last. I had several more, plus other nuclear medial care. Not sure how you feel about sitting in a hall way in a paper gown with male recruits walking by, or having an exam while the door is open to the hall way, but I did not like it at all. But, I was not in it alone. Like I said, it was the least of the disrespect. None of us liked it. Also - to above poster - can you please post your reference regarding female veterans being twice as likely as getting breast cancer?? Thanks.

"What are we saying here? Male nurses should only have to do certain aspects of the job? One poster made a comment that he'll do all the heavy lifting. That's a joke in the ER and he knows it.....The female nurses I work with do just as much heavy lifting as the males." What I am saying is this: 1. If a gender sensitive assignments can be made they should w/following considered: 2. Patients should be asked at intake how they feel, effort should be made to respect gender sensitivities, and talk w/patient when it cannot giving option to consent, request chaperon, or refuse care. Offer to let them meet the male provider before they decide if that will help. 3. Give younger girls/women priority in gender specific requirements, and have a parent present for exams of under age girls, or have a chaperon. 4. Treat patients under anesthesia as you would if they were going to remember everything you are doing to them. Never lie to a patient about who will be doing what to them while they are under anesthesia. Let them meet the residents and students. 5. Have at least one O.R. circulating be female, and assign her to watch over a female patient while she is under anesthesia. If physician have chaperone's I do not see why nurses should be offended at the idea. "And again....I don't think the OPs comment about "Beggar" was meant to insight such negative comment. I further don't feel the comment is a symptom of "burn out" either." Well, we will just have to agree to disagree; nothing turns on it anyway. 'I do suspect though that the NON medical persons who visit this site have an agenda of their own when they judge a "vent" from a nurse on these sites." Hmmm. Agenda, yes reform. (Good for you though, I want more licensed nurses for one.) Did that have much to do with my judgment? Yes, I guess it does. I find her attitude offensive and related to how I was treated, other patients have been treated,... Look, attitudes have a lot to do with how people treat each other. Classism is at the center of how people seeking health care will be treated and it should not be the case. Not in my opinion. She is not the first I have heard mouth off w/classiest B.S. One doc, for example was talking about gang practice exams and said something to the effect of just get the welfare moms, they cannot say, 'No".... but in a much more offensive tone. Like I said, on this we will have to just agree to disagree and let it go. I would rather talk about practices than attitudes; though they are related.

I think the chest xrays at 17 yrs old, may well contribute to the fact that Female vets are twice as likely to get breast cancer. I do not know how they do it today; but decades ago the exam was humiliating and amounted to a violation of dignity and sexual harassment. But, then when you are 50+ you realize that was the least of the abuse to come.

What effect? To say that poor patients should have no rights, or no patients should have rights? Break? Not likely. Not until things change. With the world in the state it is in and the U.S. leading the way to the destruction of all our civil and human rights, of democracy itself, I am not about to take a break. Someone has to do it, no? I am sorry but the bad attitude some pysicians and nurses seem to have about patients and our rights is a problem. A nurse that thinks of patients as "beggars" (it is not like she is not getting paid), and is resistant to help out a male nurse will result in delayed care, resentful care, or uncomfortable care. I have just joined this campaign. On the other hand, she sounds like she has burn out. So, again, when you get to the point where you feel that way it is time for a break. Now, you can try to make this about me if you like; but for me it is an issue. I did notice something interesting on the board. Research I have read noted that attitudes of med students regarding informed consent for things like practice exams while patients are under anesthesia changed as they went through med school. Just a note to these young students; many patients respect your sensitivities. Do not lose them as you advance through training.

Yes, and they treat us poorly. From the time you enter the military you are treated like a chunck of meat, the V.A. is no different. I feel for the women comming home now and in the future after the way they are treated; even worse than we were a few decades ago.