The Case Against Breastfeeding

BabyCatchr, ADN, ASN, RN · Jan 18, 2010

In my 7 years total of breastfeeding my children, including in public, I never had 1 negative remark. I wore shirts that made it difficult to tell what I was doing, although I never covered with a blanket or tried to hide it. A few times people came up to look at the baby while he/she was nursing and still couldn't tell. I had to tell them baby was eating and ask them to see the baby later. My breasts look better than some women who've never had kids, so here's to that MYTH. My 40 yr old younger sister has never had kids and hers look the same as mine. We both used to have full D cups and now they are smaller and less full but still pretty. Has to do with aging, genetics, and health. We are both very fit.

areawoman · Jan 18, 2010

In my 7 years total of breastfeeding my children, including in public, I never had 1 negative remark. I wore shirts that made it difficult to tell what I was doing, although I never covered with a blanket or tried to hide it. A few times people came up to look at the baby while he/she was nursing and still couldn't tell. I had to tell them baby was eating and ask them to see the baby later. My breasts look better than some women who've never had kids, so here's to that MYTH. My 40 yr old younger sister has never had kids and hers look the same as mine. We both used to have full D cups and now they are smaller and less full but still pretty. Has to do with aging, genetics, and health. We are both very fit.

I've had the same experience through close to 4 years of breastfeeding 2 children -- no one has ever said anything negative to me, although I have had a couple of positive comments along the lines of, "Great to see your little one is getting breastmilk." And my boobs are definitely not any worse for the wear. Mine are actually a little larger, but I think it's more because I've gained a few pounds -- they're just as perky as ever.

lamazeteacher · Jan 18, 2010

Natatat, re your post # 173

You're new to allnurses.com, it seems and haven't been a part of other threads, that have been closed. I have seen them, and believe me, this loaded subject has tame replies, compared to others I've seen. We certainly don't want to "bash" you for yhour viewpoint being put out there for our edification. It's the angry, name calling, vicious replies that cause threads to close. They pretty much close themselves, through written thoughts that haven't been thought through enough, and certainly wouldn't be verbalized as they're written, without fear for the posters' safety. :argue:

Now, about your statement regarding indecency. Indecent is defined by Webster as "improper; morally offensive; obscene". We've all seen daily exhibitions of behaviour that fit that definition, and I think you'd probably agree that breastfeeding in a public place, with a cover over the breast and baby's mouth are pretty tame when compared to girating teenagers on streets, heavily engaged in sexual acts (not necessarily including nudity). We also know of lapdancing, pole dancing, etc. which to our minds belong in bedrooms with privacy. Which acts are more obscene; improper; and morally offensive, yet there is a louder outcry against someone performing the simple task of breastfeeding her baby. :rolleyes:

Most people watching Haitian victims as they're extrapolated ALIVE from their concrete "crypts", wouldn't view any part of their bodies that might show private parts due to clothing that slipped away from them, as indecent.

Granted, the editing newsrooms usually don't publicly display the footage showing that, which is in good taste. It's also "good taste" to cover oneself while breastfeeding in this country. In both those exam ples, people are suffering. The baby with hunger pangs, mom with the knowledge that she can assuage that, and perhaps painful engorgement. Most civilized people don't want discomfort such as that to continue due to their stringent upbringing or the possibility that some undisciplined sojul could get "turned on". Is the possible discomfort of male or female sexual arousal in public more offensive than knowing that an act of infant nutrition is being satisfied?

Those with "good taste" would turn their heads and occupy their minds with their own meal, conversation, or just relief that another being is accessing their means of feeding; and a deterent to infants' irritating crying found. Some may say that nursing mothers should stay at home, or have their young infants fed by a bottle there by someone else, rather than taking them out, at a time when they might get hungry. (I happen to have as much abhorrence for "nipple confusion" as you may have to breastfeeding "in public".) When I was caring for my 3 month old infant son on the shoulder that was well off the highway, a peace officer came along, and when he saw what I was doing, disdainfully said that he wished he could ticket me for my offense in public. I was in a locked car with the partially tinted windows up, not waving my son and his source of nutrition in the outside air, for heavens' sake!!

I recall an OB nurse pumping her breastmilk with her scrub top over the apparatus, in the relative privacy of our OB nurses' lounge on the unit, while eating lunch. Another nurse, who was elderly and prim, commented to her, that the action of pumping breastmilk where people eat, was objectionable. Now the nurse who objected, hadn't been there first and chose to come in, bring an extra tray of patients' food and eat there, having seen that the other nurse was multi-tasking....... A multitude of ethical viewpoints could be discussed about that, but I've included that instance here, to illustrate generational and background indicators that may influence how we think of others and ourselves. It seems to me that some think their unique need for comfort exceeds that of others.

Marymoomoo · Jan 18, 2010

Actually, if you had read that part of my post properly, I was simply saying that I personally, don't agree with breastfeeding past about a year or the "family bed." Then I said that a lot of it has to do with culture or region and it is just a preference.

I do understand it is your opinion, or preference. :) As I said, you're welcome to it. To each his/her own!

I said as long as your kid turns out fine and not a serial killer or anything then it's your own business. I wasn't saying that breast-fed, family bed grown children turn out to be serial killers obviously.

I'm sorry If I misunderstood your intent.

The statement raised my eyebrows for the simple fact that taking care of a child's needs does not a serial killer make. Something terrible has to go wrong both in the person's interpersonal relationships and brain chemistry to get to a point where they care for nothing except themselves. To sum up, the medical evidence is clear--breastfeeding past infancy does not cause psychological damage.

I was actually defending that while it's strange (strange as in different, not as in "weird") to me, it's still normal. If you were somehow insulted, then you simply misinterpreted what I meant, because in that part of my post I was actually defending that it's totally normal and the kids turn out fine. I don't think kids that sleep in the same bed or room as their parents for the first few years of life are any less independent or that kids who are breast-fed past a year are just weird. I simply said that the act of doing those things is strange to me because that's not how I was raised and that's not the kind of culture I live in (many people where I live don't even "breast-feed', just pump and give to baby in a bottle, and a lot give both breast milk and formula). Yes, I'm entitled to my opinion, everyone is, but I wasn't being insulting.

Your intent didn't read through your post for me, and unfortunately, that sometimes happens with electronic communications. :) Again, I'm sorry if I misunderstood your point. I thank you for taking the time to expand on your thoughts.

For reference, this is what I originally responded to:

I do think it's a bit gross when women continue to breast-feed their children well past two and three years of age. It might be a culture thing again, but it's just really creepy. I also, however, am against letting children sleep in the bed with the parents, the "family bed" thing, but a lot of people like it. It's just a preference and as long as your kid doesn't turn out to be a crazy serial killer or something, it's your business (as long as I don't have to see your boob )

Seeing another woman's breast at work is different from seeing one on the street or while I'm trying to eat my dinner. It's not the matter of seeing a breast, it's the matter of public indecency. I know I'll get bashed for this, but I think that exposing yourself in a public place for whatever the reason, without the consent of those around you, is indecent. Seeing a woman's breast in a hospital is a completely different situation. Even if both situations involve breastfeeding, to me it is just completely different and I know most of you will disagree and that's your opinion but this is mine.

As always, you're entitled to your opinion. :)

In MY opinion, breastfeeding isn't indecent. During lacation, the human breast is a food manufacturing and delivery system. There's nothing sexual about the lactating breast or providing nourishment to a hungry baby.

Most mothers don't show skin while breastfeeding. Personally, I had many a person walk up to me while I was nursing my son and assume he was sleeping. They would lean closer to take a peek, and I would have to tell them that he was eating. He was one of those babies that did NOT like a cover over his head. When he was a newborn he would cry if a blanket was put over him and refuse to nurse. When he was older, he would reach up, grab hold of the fabric, and rip the cover off. :lol2: I only had a few nursing shirts, so I mostly wore a regular t-shirt with a camisole underneath. Very little skin was ever shown. For the record, I never had anyone comment on my nursing in public.

I know there are some mothers out there who bare a bit more while breastfeeding, and that is their personal preference and comfort level. In that case, I always wonder why it's okay for women to dine in low cut dresses or in hipster jeans (with their thong showing!) and a belly top with breasts bared to the nipple, but not okay for a mother to discreetly (or not-so-discreetly) feed her baby. If breasts are bared for looks, it's culturally acceptable. If breasts are bared for breastfeeding, it's a private act that shouldn't be seen.

The implications of making public breastfeeding taboo are much more than an incovenience for individual mothers. Concerns over the need to breastfeed when "out and about" is a barrier to breastfeeding for mothers all around the country, and when mothers choose not to breastfeed over fears of having to breastfeed away from home it has an impact on public health.

I don't say any of this to change your mind. I don't agree with your POV, but I respect it. I just wanted to explain why I feel the way I do, so that you might understand where I'm coming from. Differing opinions, and the ability to express them, are the spice of life. I'm glad that we can share and learn together in this forum. :)

Maybe the staff should close this thread?? Because, while debate is healthy, persecution for one's beliefs is not. This thread is getting as bad as any religion or political thread you find on the internet somewhere. We can't just post what we "think" without getting some snarky remarks back, calling people stupid, selfish, ignorant, etc. It's disgusting when, with the way medicine can change so rapidly, to find nurses with such closed minds.

I'm confused. I don't see anybody persecuting others for their beliefs. You're welcome to your beliefs. Others are welcome to post thier own, even if that is an alternative point of view.

Despite the subjects being discussed here being "hot" topics, I think that the conversation has been encouraging and mind opening. I see this thread as a wonderful example of information sharing and community building. :heartbeat As forum debates go, this one has been civil and rather tame!

GM2RN · Jan 18, 2010

Maybe the staff should close this thread?? Because, while debate is healthy, persecution for one's beliefs is not. This thread is getting as bad as any religion or political thread you find on the internet somewhere. We can't just post what we "think" without getting some snarky remarks back, calling people stupid, selfish, ignorant, etc. It's disgusting when, with the way medicine can change so rapidly, to find nurses with such closed minds.

Ok, this takes the cake. It fries me when someone has to resort to saying that people have "closed minds" just because their opinion differs from one's own. That is such a load of crap. I, and many if not all of the other breastmilk supporters here, have read much research and listened to lots of other opinions about breadmilk vs formula, and after weighing all of that information have made a conscious decision that breastmilk is best. That is far from having a "closed mind" and saying so is just as bad as any other name that you perceive to have been called.

I have read every post on this thread and the only people that were referred to as "stupid" in jest were the men who were objectifying their wives breasts. I don't recall "ignorant" being used, and as for "selfish", well, it IS a selfish choice to use formula, barring those who absolutely CAN'T breastfeed for some health or medical reason. That is just a fact, and telling the truth about it doesn't make me or anyone else "closed minded" just because you don't want to hear it.

natatat · Jan 18, 2010

It seems to me that some think their unique need for comfort exceeds that of others.

That applies not only to the person offended by a woman breastfeeding in public but also to the woman breastfeeding who feels that people should not be offended (and somehow feels "above" everyone else simply because she has a child to feed). Everyone is different, a lot of people have that "I'll do what I want when I want and where I want" mentality. That's the real problem, not just specifically breastfeeding in public. The thing is that with a lot of women, if anyone has an opinion different than theirs about how they should deal with their children, in any way, they freak out.

You seemed to direct the majority of your post at me when a lot of it, in my previous post, I agreed with. Maybe you didn't read my entire post, I don't know. Thanks for the vocabulary lesson, but I still view it as indecent. :)

I even stated in my first post that I will breast-feed when I have children, barring certain situations that would prevent me from doing so. My issue is that if for some reason I choose not to or can't, I can't stand the fact that certain women will look down on me like as if I'm doing something wrong or being selfish. Since this is a nursing site, no one on here can blame a woman who just can't produce enough milk, but when one of my sisters-in-law couldn't breast-feed (her son is now 9 months), my mother-in-law (our men are brothers so it's not her mother) and the sisters of our lovely men would constantly make comments about how she was doing something wrong, didn't try hard enough, was "useless", etc. Even she felt horrible because of the things she knew they were saying about her and I had to explain to her that it just happens sometimes and it's not her fault and her son is perfectly healthy and loved and that's all that matters. (It sounds harsh, but none of them are very educated, including her. They have a lot of "traditions" and "superstitions", etc.) Some people can be really rude when it comes to this topic, no matter what side they're on.

Obviously I would not begrudge a woman breast-feeding in public if it was not even apparent that she was doing so until someone asked to see the baby. That's not what I'm talking about. All the instances where people have said "people didn't even realize what I was doing" is not what I have a problem with, and I've said so previously. I brought up women using blankets because that's the easiest way to cover yourself in public, but there are women who mastered the art of "My baby's eating and they think I'm just holding him, man I'm good!" My problem is with the women who don't even make an effort to turn away, use button down shirts, or anything and just lift their shirt up and start feeding the baby with no warning. I've seen people do that while I was in the middle of a sentence and not only is it jarring and unexpected, but it's rude not even to consider for a second how another person might react to you so blatantly exposing yourself. And the thing is, the times that people have asked "Do you mind?" or "If you want I can go to the other room" I always say "It's fine, no, go ahead!" The only time I've ever asked someone to leave to room was because it was a large family party and I know that my family is offended by public breastfeeding (and I was met by very rude comments by my sister-in-law(not the same as above), who was a guest in my home and should have just politely left the room, I mean, it's not her home). Again, my problem is only with the women who are rude and indiscreet about it. That's not the same as what most of the people on here have posted about "people not even realizing". And some have said "That's such a small amount of women", but I'm sorry, where I live, no it's not.

Back to the article, the only thing I'm inclined to point out is that the writer does have a point in that, though there's a lot of medical research about how beneficial breast milk is or is not, a lot of it is conflicting. Also, there are so many other factors that have to to be taken into account that it's hard to look at it as concrete. Though I think it's better to be safe than sorry especially because, yes, formula can be harmful sometimes (metal, bad manufacturing causing too many or not enough vitamins, etc.), all the "there's so much research to support it!" isn't really the best argument.

Marymoomoo · Jan 18, 2010

Those with "good taste" would turn their heads and occupy their minds with their own meal, conversation, or just relief that another being is accessing their means of feeding; and a deterent to infants' irritating crying found.

It seems to me that some think their unique need for comfort exceeds that of others.

I thought these were so great that they bear repeating.

Come to think of it, wouldn't turning away be so much simpler than loudly complaining? How many things do each of us see in a day that we personally find distasteful? What about that guy that chews with his mouth open, mayo dripping down his chin? Or that lady who loudly talks on her cell phone while you're waiting in line at the bank? What about that guy in line in front of you at the gas station that visibly dirty and smells like he hasn't bathed in weeks? Do we ask the waitress to make that guy chew with his mouth closed and use a napkin? Do we ask the bank teller to tell the cell phone lady to turn it off until she leaves the bank lobby? Do we ask the cashier at the gas station to tell the guy to come back when he's had a bath? Of course not (or at least I don't :lol2: ). I think most of us would simply turn away and not let the other person's activities affect us personally.

natatat · Jan 18, 2010

I'm confused. I don't see anybody persecuting others for their beliefs. You're welcome to your beliefs. Others are welcome to post thier own, even if that is an alternative point of view.

Being outright called selfish is rude, in my opinion, and then condescending when it's followed up by "But it's your choice!"

And not outright name-calling, but there's snarky remarks drenched in sarcasm and condescension all over this thread. I'm not saying you or anything, but I actually read through the entire thread and a lot of people were very rude.

I think everyone is welcome to post their own point of view, but I'm not sure that some are aware that it's possible to do so without being rude.

Thank you for taking the time to read through my post where I was trying to explain to you what I really meant. It's easy to misinterpret things on the internet, because all we have is words to go by. I was never trying to be insulting or rude to anyone.

jennylouwho · Jan 18, 2010

I've never asked someone if they'd like me to leave, or go to another room, unless I was in their home. I have the legal right in my state to breastfeed in public. It's not indecent. The only people that might catch a glimpse of something are the people who are looking to see something. I can discreetly latch a baby without any sort of covering and just lifting my shirt (I've never been able to use a button up discreetly, but that might be the fact that my nursing boobs are H's). The only time that I will use a blanket is if I am in a location where I feel like by lifting my shirt my belly or side might be exposed. Trust me - I show far less boob than most on a summer day, but showing the belly would not pleasant and would direct attention to what I'm doing. :lol:

natatat · Jan 18, 2010

Ok, this takes the cake. It fries me when someone has to resort to saying that people have "closed minds" just because their opinion differs from one's own. That is such a load of crap. I, and many if not all of the other breastmilk supporters here, have read much research and listened to lots of other opinions about breadmilk vs formula, and after weighing all of that information have made a conscious decision that breastmilk is best. That is far from having a "closed mind" and saying so is just as bad as any other name that you perceive to have been called.
I have read every post on this thread and the only people that were referred to as "stupid" in jest were the men who were objectifying their wives breasts. I don't recall "ignorant" being used, and as for "selfish", well, it IS a selfish choice to use formula, barring those who absolutely CAN'T breastfeed for some health or medical reason. That is just a fact, and telling the truth about it doesn't make me or anyone else "closed minded" just because you don't want to hear it.

When did I say that because someone has a different opinion their closed minded? Don't twist it around. I meant that as nurses, future nurses, whatever anyone on here is, we should have open minds (to which, the opposite of which would be closed minds) to the fact that medicine is something that is almost constantly changing. So to call someone selfish because they don't want to breast-feed is, yes, a little closed minded because in a few years WHO or some other organization could suddenly release research stating that breast-milk is no more beneficial than formula! You really never know! And to say that to use formula is a selfish choice is not a fact, it's your opinion.

Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP · Jan 18, 2010

Can everyone please calm down a bit?

Can we all agree that with all the other tragedy in the world, it's not worth it to get this worked up over a thread on the internet?

Marymoomoo · Jan 18, 2010

Back to the article, the only thing I'm inclined to point out is that the writer does have a point in that, though there's a lot of medical research about how beneficial breast milk is or is not, a lot of it is conflicting. Also, there are so many other factors that have to to be taken into account that it's hard to look at it as concrete. Though I think it's better to be safe than sorry especially because, yes, formula can be harmful sometimes (metal, bad manufacturing causing too many or not enough vitamins, etc.), all the "there's so much research to support it!" isn't really the best argument.

The article in this thread, and half a dozen other recent ones like it, have been slammed with rebuttals from notable scientists, researchers, and medical organizations. These are opinion pieces, scattered with bits of research where the author picks and chooses the "evidence" that they wish to focus on. Often times, more recent and reliable research has been ignored in order to prove the author's point.

There is no question that breastmilk is the perfect food for human babies, just like there is no question that dog milk is best for puppies, koala milk for joeys, and so on and so forth. The disputes against the "benefits" of breastfeeding are almost always political in nature.

That being said, formula is an acceptable and adequate substitute when breastmilk isn't available (whatever the reason) or is contraindicated (such as in the case of some inborn errors of metabolism). It simply is not the same or "as good as" breastmilk because science cannot replicate the many components of breastmilk. Did you know that breastmilk actually contains stem cells. Stem cells! Science is just beginning to uncover the many properties that make human milk unique and how those properties affect human growth and development.