Schools that require you to find a preceptor (rant)

djmatte, ADN, MSN, RN, NP · May 16, 2018

If your lectures aren't conveying real-world experience of the lecturer then you should ask for your money back because they aren't preparing you for practice. If a program is "teaching" NP students by having them read assigned readings and do discussion posts then those students are not being prepared for practice, at least in my opinion. Lectures should integrate what is covered in assigned readings applied into practice. Practice experience is incredibly important for that.

I don't know if I completely agree with that. While educating based on practice is important, educating on evidence-based readings IMO is more important. Textbooks were fine for some of the broader courses on theory and information that is fairly concrete, but our school relied heavily on research and evidence-based practice articles. While granted there was lots of practice information peppered in there, we all know what we see/do in practice can vary widely from what suggested evidence and general education guidelines can present us. "Real world experience" can easily translate into board failures and fall far away from evidence-based approaches.

lwsoccjs · May 16, 2018

Agreed, I am speaking from witnessing other students courses and schooling. Not speaking from personal experience.

NJ2008 · May 16, 2018

OP, I see where you are coming from about schools needing to give students more assistance in finding preceptors. Schools may be taking advantage of students in that way.

However, the rest of the post comes off as looking down on people. :unsure: I'm sure that was not your intention. But I don't think you can have it both ways. On the one hand, some don't like schools that cater to adult learners and offer a non traditional or alternative route to an education. On the other hand, those same people want nurses to wait about 10 years to go back to school. Well after 10 years, a women is probably going to have kids, a husband, a mortgage and a job. So that means she is not a traditional student who can sit in a classroom all day or wait on a program with a once a year start date and application deadline 10 months in advance, lol. She needs something a little different but that doesn't make a person lazy or stupid. Most medical students I know did not wait 10 years to go to medical school. So they are a different type of student. They went when they were single, childless and carefree. Which means they can put all their efforts into traditional schooling. Yet young nurses are often discouraged from going back to school. If a nurse comes on here and says she's a 21 year old, single, new grad with parents willing to pay tuition to any school she wants. Many posters will tell her to wait 10 years. Well in 10 years she'll be going to University of Phoenix, lol. Again you can't have it both ways.

It seems like the online programs which some dislike so much are the way of the future. We are moving towards a technology society and people have to get used to it. These programs are ahead of the curve.

Also, I see many students comparing themselves to M.D students and their standards. Talking about physicians do this and physicians do that. So I wonder, if you're really about that life, why not got to medical school? Is one of the reasons because medical school is longer, harder, costlier or more rigid. If it is one of those reasons, then the same things you are looking down on others for are the same reasons you want to go the NP route yourself. And that's ok, there is nothing wrong with looking for something more convenient to your life style in trying to reach your goals.:)

Dranger · May 16, 2018

OP, I see where you are coming from about schools needing to give students more assistance in finding preceptors. Schools may be taking advantage of students in that way.
However, the rest of the post comes off as looking down on people. I'm sure that was not your intention. But I don't think you can have it both ways. On the one hand, some don't like schools that cater to adult learners and offer a non traditional or alternative route to an education. On the other hand, those same people want nurses to wait about 10 years to go back to school. Well after 10 years, a women is probably going to have kids, a husband, a mortgage and a job. So that means she is not a traditional student who can sit in a classroom all day or wait on a program with a once a year start date and application deadline 10 months in advance, lol. She needs something a little different but that doesn't make a person lazy or stupid. Most medical students I know did not wait 10 years to go to medical school. So they are a different type of student. They went when they were single, childless and carefree. Which means they can put all their efforts into traditional schooling. Yet young nurses are often discouraged from going back to school. If a nurse comes on here and says she's a 21 year old, single, new grad with parents willing to pay tuition to any school she wants. Many posters will tell her to wait 10 years. Well in 10 years she'll be going to University of Phoenix, lol. Again you can't have it both ways.
It seems like the online programs which some dislike so much are the way of the future. We are moving towards a technology society and people have to get used to it. These programs are ahead of the curve.
Also, I see many students comparing themselves to M.D students and their standards. Talking about physicians do this and physicians do that. So I wonder, if you're really about that life, why not got to medical school? Is one of the reasons because medical school is longer, harder, costlier or more rigid. If it is one of those reasons, then the same things you are looking down on others for are the same reasons you want to go the NP route yourself. And that's ok, there is nothing wrong with looking for something more convenient to your life style in trying to reach your goals.:)

Not everyone is meant to be a provider. If life circumstances make it too hard, schools shouldn't adjust so far to make everything a participation trophy. Med schools don't do it so why do NP schools? Online school can be effective in SOME ways but not always. You come out as a provider, maybe not a MD but still a provider. That is a ton of responsibility that shouldn't be half-assed.

Nurses have an entitlement complex....this is getting ridiculous.

Dodongo, APRN, NP · May 16, 2018

Not everyone is meant to be a provider. If life circumstances make it too hard, schools shouldn't adjust so far to make everything a participation trophy. Med schools don't do it so why do NP schools? Online school can be effective in SOME ways but not always. You come out as a provider, maybe not a MD but still a provider. That is a ton of responsibility that shouldn't be half-assed.
Nurses have an entitlement complex....this is getting ridiculous.

YES. Thank you. I hate hate hate when nurses say, "if it weren't for these programs I never would have been able to do it..."

Well, ok. Too bad so sad. Not every one should have every opportunity they want. You didn't get a good gpa? Oh well. You "can't" move? Shucks. You just HAVE to keep working? Not our problem.

NP programs shouldn't have dropped their standards just so these "poor unfortunate souls" can be whatever it is they want to be in life. Our profession and our patients deserve better than that.

Telenurse1990 · May 16, 2018

OP, I see where you are coming from about schools needing to give students more assistance in finding preceptors. Schools may be taking advantage of students in that way.
However, the rest of the post comes off as looking down on people. I'm sure that was not your intention. But I don't think you can have it both ways. On the one hand, some don't like schools that cater to adult learners and offer a non traditional or alternative route to an education. On the other hand, those same people want nurses to wait about 10 years to go back to school. Well after 10 years, a women is probably going to have kids, a husband, a mortgage and a job. So that means she is not a traditional student who can sit in a classroom all day or wait on a program with a once a year start date and application deadline 10 months in advance, lol. She needs something a little different but that doesn't make a person lazy or stupid. Most medical students I know did not wait 10 years to go to medical school. So they are a different type of student. They went when they were single, childless and carefree. Which means they can put all their efforts into traditional schooling. Yet young nurses are often discouraged from going back to school. If a nurse comes on here and says she's a 21 year old, single, new grad with parents willing to pay tuition to any school she wants. Many posters will tell her to wait 10 years. Well in 10 years she'll be going to University of Phoenix, lol. Again you can't have it both ways.
It seems like the online programs which some dislike so much are the way of the future. We are moving towards a technology society and people have to get used to it. These programs are ahead of the curve.
Also, I see many students comparing themselves to M.D students and their standards. Talking about physicians do this and physicians do that. So I wonder, if you're really about that life, why not got to medical school? Is one of the reasons because medical school is longer, harder, costlier or more rigid. If it is one of those reasons, then the same things you are looking down on others for are the same reasons you want to go the NP route yourself. And that's ok, there is nothing wrong with looking for something more convenient to your life style in trying to reach your goals.:)

You are completely twisting my words. I never said anything bad about online programs. I'm talking about diploma mill programs that require no campus visits, no mandatory login times, no science pre-reqs, and are taking student's money without even assisting in the clinical finding process. My issue comes when people haven't done their time in the field and go straight to being a provider. I've dedicated my entire working life to this profession. I've done my time, have maintained a decent GPA and have the resume to qualify. I did not go into nursing with the intention of being a provider. I went into this profession to become a nurse and made the decision to further myself.

Secondly, no, it is not ok to look for something more "convenient". Just because you have an RN license does not entitle you to become a provider. There needs to be standards. You should have to make sacrifices to be at that level of practice. I have unfortunately worked with MANY NPs who have very little to no experience as a nurse and it shows. Attitudes like that are going to ruin the profession.

Telenurse1990 · May 16, 2018

Not everyone is meant to be a provider. If life circumstances make it too hard, schools shouldn't adjust so far to make everything a participation trophy. Med schools don't do it so why do NP schools? Online school can be effective in SOME ways but not always. You come out as a provider, maybe not a MD but still a provider. That is a ton of responsibility that shouldn't be half-assed.
Nurses have an entitlement complex....this is getting ridiculous.

Agreed. I never said that the requirements are even close to that of medical schools. But we are working in a very similar role, with much less education. There needs to be SOME standard. I'm applying for online programs. But only ones that arrange clinical, have mandatory login times with live classes and requires campus visits. Online education can be good when they actually care about producing quality providers.

allnurses Guide · May 17, 2018

My issue comes when people haven't done their time in the field and go straight to being a provider.
I have unfortunately worked with MANY NPs who have very little to no experience as a nurse and it shows.
Attitudes like that are going to ruin the profession.

Attitudes like this also cause quite a bit of problems in the profession.

djmatte, ADN, MSN, RN, NP · May 17, 2018

Attitudes like this also cause quite a bit of problems in the profession.

Arguably only if you are a product of a DE background.

allnurses Guide · May 17, 2018

Arguably only if you are a product of a DE background.

I missed part of the quoted text, but I meant more generally the notion that one person is more qualified simply because they "put their time in". It extends far beyond DEs and speaks to the fact that one of the biggest hurdles a novice NP faces is other nurses.

Additionally in-fighting (especially that which is based on a mixture of personal pride, ignorance, and bias) weakens the profession as whole.

FullGlass, BSN, MSN, NP · May 17, 2018

You are completely twisting my words. I never said anything bad about online programs. I'm talking about diploma mill programs that require no campus visits, no mandatory login times, no science pre-reqs, and are taking student's money without even assisting in the clinical finding process. My issue comes when people haven't done their time in the field and go straight to being a provider. I've dedicated my entire working life to this profession. I've done my time, have maintained a decent GPA and have the resume to qualify. I did not go into nursing with the intention of being a provider. I went into this profession to become a nurse and made the decision to further myself.
Secondly, no, it is not ok to look for something more "convenient". Just because you have an RN license does not entitle you to become a provider. There needs to be standards. You should have to make sacrifices to be at that level of practice. I have unfortunately worked with MANY NPs who have very little to no experience as a nurse and it shows. Attitudes like that are going to ruin the profession.

Kudos to you for advancing your career and being selective in your schooling. No one is being forced to go to a subpar school. However, the individuals that go to those schools still have to pass their classes, complete clinicals, and pass the license exam. Assuming they complete those steps, then they must find a job as an NP. I seriously doubt that is easy or that 100% of such students manage to become NPs. I would bet that it takes a very motivated student to accomplish this.

As for your DE comment, that ship has sailed. The best MSN programs accept DE NP students for primary care (not acute care), but admissions standards for those students are very rigorous. I am a DE student and am doing just fine on my first job, thank you. I don't know any brand new NP on their first job who is going to know everything and just sail through, RN experience or not. Being an RN is very different from being a provider and working in a hospital (where most RNs work) is very different from working in a primary care clinic. No patient has asked me if was an RN prior to becoming an NP. My fellow NPs asked, but they really didn't care that I wasn't and have been nothing but supportive. Same with the MDs.

I really don't understand the purpose of your original post. You are planning on attending a good NP program. Do well and then you will obtain a good NP job. It doesn't matter what other people do. If you are a superior job candidate, you will get hired over less qualified candidates.

The infighting among RNs and NPs I see on this forum is dismaying and fortunately, does not reflect my experience. We have a free market economy. That means competition. The cream will rise to the top.

If you think guaranteed employment and tight regulation of everything is so great, reread your history books on the USSR and China under Mao. Even in Western Europe, there is far less career mobility than here in the U.S. Our system has its flaws, but it is still the best one out there.

Telenurse1990 · May 19, 2018

Kudos to you for advancing your career and being selective in your schooling. No one is being forced to go to a subpar school. However, the individuals that go to those schools still have to pass their classes, complete clinicals, and pass the license exam. Assuming they complete those steps, then they must find a job as an NP. I seriously doubt that is easy or that 100% of such students manage to become NPs. I would bet that it takes a very motivated student to accomplish this.
As for your DE comment, that ship has sailed. The best MSN programs accept DE NP students for primary care (not acute care), but admissions standards for those students are very rigorous. I am a DE student and am doing just fine on my first job, thank you. I don't know any brand new NP on their first job who is going to know everything and just sail through, RN experience or not. Being an RN is very different from being a provider and working in a hospital (where most RNs work) is very different from working in a primary care clinic. No patient has asked me if was an RN prior to becoming an NP. My fellow NPs asked, but they really didn't care that I wasn't and have been nothing but supportive. Same with the MDs.
I really don't understand the purpose of your original post. You are planning on attending a good NP program. Do well and then you will obtain a good NP job. It doesn't matter what other people do. If you are a superior job candidate, you will get hired over less qualified candidates.
The infighting among RNs and NPs I see on this forum is dismaying and fortunately, does not reflect my experience. We have a free market economy. That means competition. The cream will rise to the top.
If you think guaranteed employment and tight regulation of everything is so great, reread your history books on the USSR and China under Mao. Even in Western Europe, there is far less career mobility than here in the U.S. Our system has its flaws, but it is still the best one out there.

Being that you weren't an RN beforehand, how would you know the difference? You don't know what you don't know. You don't think years of working in an intensive care unit, medical surgical unit, telemetry unit or otherwise has any benefit? I'm sorry but that's insanity. There's an obvious difference. Even as a primary care NP having RN experience does make a difference.

I'm simply upset with the lack of standards in NP programs. Plain and simple. I don't believe that it is acceptable for schools to require students to find preceptors. This is something unique to NP students. No PA, MD, DO or CRNA students are expected to do the same thing. Schools are placing money before the interest of the student and of the general public. Search this website and you'll encounter plenty of disasters where students are about the drop out of school because they can't find rotations. Does that stop the school from collecting their money? Absolutely not. I know someone personally who has had to drop from NP school for this reason. It's not acceptable. And students as well as practicing NPs should stop defending it. The online diploma mill/find your own clinical kind of schools are destroying the credibility of nurse practitioners as a profession.