Student nurse Jack MacFarland... Discuss

geekgolightly, BSN, RN · Dec 13, 2003

Originally posted by Peeps Mcarthur
By Geekgolightly

It would only be incorrect in the case of nursing programs that claim neutrality of gender in the vocation.

A generic "he" is used when a neutral gender is intended. The Blair Hanbook states, "If there is no doubt about the gender of the antecedent, you can use the pronoun of the same gender"

Therefore, a neutral gender is not intended and a feminine context is not in doubt.

It seems that the publisher, the program that approves the text and anyone that thinks it's the proper pronoun to be used, also thinks that nursing is feminine.

It is interesting to note that the Physician Assistant profession has more females than males and the gender gap is growing steadily. Despite this disparity you will find no such message in thier texts nor will you observe such a stereotype being acceptable by way of apathy.

So we ladies should continue to put up with "gender (non) neutral" "he" because a book states this to be accurate? We should probably just keep our mouths shut and just accept that "he" is standard.

I refuse to accept this. I refuse to accept that I should be quiet and know my place and accept "he" as "gender neutral" when we all know good and well that it is not. Normally, I don;t complain, but if a man is going to come in and complain that "she" is being used in a text describing nurses when percentage wise most nurse are female, I have a problem. It's as if men can't stand being left-out in any way shape or form and must assert that HE exists as a "he" and we should all accept that not only does HE need to assert HIMSELF as "he" but that we should all bend under the weight of "he," whether we be he or she.

I would hope that you would be able to understand statistically speaking, there are more females than males in this profession, and that as such, it only makes sense to call nurse's she in text books (an occasional "he" makes sense as well) just as when we are describing babies in a book about babies, that we can use he and she interchangably (and hopefully 50/50) just as when we are discussing fireMEN that text would use he almost exclusively... rather than following antiquated guidelines that subvert all the "she's" in this world.

and to point, i certainly don't think you are being rude. i am expressing my arguement and you are expressing yours. I appreciate that you don't pull strawmen fallacies as so many do in internet discussions. You seem to grasp whole text and address the roots.

Peeps Mcarthur · Dec 13, 2003

By Geekgolightly

and to point, i certainly don't think you are being rude. i am expressing my arguement and you are expressing yours. I appreciate that you don't pull strawmen fallacies as so many do in internet discussions. You seem to grasp whole text and address the roots.

Thank you very much. I appreciate a mind that can recognize that. And thank you Marilyn.

I just wanted to say that I probably won't have time this weekend to respond appropriately ( I just hate it when no one posts for days). I just hit the link to see what you all had to say.

The mall closed late and I have hairy eyeballs....LOL

Peeps Mcarthur · Dec 16, 2003

Heeeeee'sss baaaaaack!

Bt Marilyn

So we ladies should continue to put up with "gender (non) neutral" "he" because a book states this to be accurate? We should probably just keep our mouths shut and just accept that "he" is standard.

The Blair Handbook is not making a supposition with the statement......

A generic "he" is used when a neutral gender is intended. The Blair Hanbook states, "If there is no doubt about the gender of the antecedent, you can use the pronoun of the same gender"

..........It is stating it as a fact of standard writing.

The very important point lost here is that the part of the quote that is important to this discussion ""a generic "he" is used when a neutral gender is intended".

The quote states if there is " no doubt about the gender of the antecedent, you can use the pronoun of the same gender".

In other words, there is no doubt that a nurse is a she as opposed to the technicaly neutral "he". "He" is neutral, without bias, according to The Blair Handbook. I think you will find the same precedent in your english composition guide.

By Marilyn

I refuse to accept this. I refuse to accept that I should be quiet and know my place and accept "he" as "gender neutral" when we all know good and well that it is not.

I can honestly say that I know how you feel, now that I've had a taste of it myself. However, at issue here is not a technicaly correct "he". The issue is the "no doubt" decision to use "she".

By Marilyn

I would hope that you would be able to understand statistically speaking, there are more females than males in this profession, and that as such, it only makes sense to call nurse's she in text books (an occasional "he" makes sense as well)

It only makes sense to me because I've been in nursing school and could feel and see that bias with my own eyes . Why have an occasional "he"? He/she could be used if gender neutrality was the intention. Instead of neutrality you seem to be suggesting that a female gender is "not in doubt" while trying to throw a few "he" in there to give the appearence of deference to a smattering of males.

If nursing gender is "not in doubt" then let's stop trying to believe that it could ever be. I feel that it is certainly not in doubt. Nursing is a female vocation with some males that were misled by the limitations of political correctness. You can't tell them that outright, so they just have to spend a few years in it before the lightbulb goes on and they realize that you're just being polite.

Brad

justjenny · Dec 16, 2003

WOA!

It seems a simple little topic like "Just Jack" (LOL!) Can spark a bit of controversy!

Throwing my .02 in here -

My schools nursing prog. is a selective admission (GPA and Test Scores) they accept the top 125 people per year. Out of 1,400 applicants - I was lucky to have made it - and out of 125 students 10% are male! And let me just say that Gay or not - they are all real nice to look at! *wink*

(Ok, and don't flame me for sexual harrassment or something, now! I'm just a nice, flirty person!)

I believe Marilynn mentioned the increasing number of male students at her school as well....

It appears that in many areas of the country the "male nurse stereotype" is nearly dead...

And to quote Pres. Bush "Good riddance"

;-)

Jenny

geekgolightly, BSN, RN · Dec 17, 2003

Originally posted by Peeps Mcarthur
Heeeeee'sss baaaaaack!

Bt Marilyn

The Blair Handbook is not making a supposition with the statement......

..........It is stating it as a fact of standard writing.

The very important point lost here is that the part of the quote that is important to this discussion ""a generic "he" is used when a neutral gender is intended".

The quote states if there is " no doubt about the gender of the antecedent, you can use the pronoun of the same gender".
In other words, there is no doubt that a nurse is a she as opposed to the technicaly neutral "he". "He" is neutral, without bias, according to The Blair Handbook. I think you will find the same precedent in your english composition guide.

By Marilyn

I can honestly say that I know how you feel, now that I've had a taste of it myself. However, at issue here is not a technicaly correct "he". The issue is the "no doubt" decision to use "she".

By Marilyn

It only makes sense to me because I've been in nursing school and could feel and see that bias with my own eyes . Why have an occasional "he"? He/she could be used if gender neutrality was the intention. Instead of neutrality you seem to be suggesting that a female gender is "not in doubt" while trying to throw a few "he" in there to give the appearence of deference to a smattering of males.

If nursing gender is "not in doubt" then let's stop trying to believe that it could ever be. I feel that it is certainly not in doubt. Nursing is a female vocation with some males that were misled by the limitations of political correctness. You can't tell them that outright, so they just have to spend a few years in it before the lightbulb goes on and they realize that you're just being polite.

Brad

sweetie that was me, not marilyn who you are quoting and i think youa re missing my point., the STANDARDS should change. "He" is NOT gender neutral no matter what a "book" says. EWven if that book is the holy bible of grammar, it is not gender neutral. It is accepted as gender neutral by concensus.

I am not saying anything of the sort concerning "throwing in a smattering" of "he". I am saying that it makes sense statistically speaking. Most engineers are male, and in books about engineering and engineering texts, they use "he" which I think is reasonable. In texts concerning babies, I notice that many use he and she interchangably. In texts where nursing is concerned wherein most nurses are female, it stands to reason that the appropriate gender is "she." If there are 10% male nurses, I would conceed to 10% use of "he" rather than interchangable, as happens in texts concerning babies.

The S/he or "He/She" (as you seem to prefer) is visually awkward. I don't think it has gone over well. Feminists have been trying to implement that one since the 70's with little luck.

RNIAM, BSN, RN · Dec 17, 2003

okay I have to say that I don't care whether or not Jack is gay, straight, bi whatever. He is just too cool... and so very funny!:) Let's get back to Jack. Have you all seen the episode were jack is in the choir and he is trying to prove that whats his name is gay? Too funny, nearly wet my pants laughing!:chuckle

mona b RN, BSN, RN · Dec 17, 2003

How did this change from my bud Jack to this?

Yes, it seems the whole thread is a little off.

I'll tell you one of my favorite things that Jack does is his little restauraunt in the hallway. Just too funny. The Karen character kinda gets on my nerves though.

I really like the episode that aired a couple of weeks ago . The one when they are at the restauraunt and everyone is off kilter. It reminded me of the bizzaro Seinfeld episode.

mona

Peeps Mcarthur · Dec 17, 2003

This thread is not off the topic for the intellectuals taking time for thoughtful rhetoric. The character in question goes deeper than the comical implications, both for the actor playing it and the audience.

Anyhoo,

Geeze, sorry Geekgolightly. I got all wraped up in the post and didn't take enough time to make sure I was quoting properly. My Bad:imbar

By Geekgolightly

am not saying anything of the sort concerning "throwing in a smattering" of "he". I am saying that it makes sense statistically speaking.

I would say that I feel that's fair but just as unreadable as he/she. These rules for pronoun usage are critical in delivering the message of a text. It's clear, regardless of the tone, that pronouns must be consistently displayed in order for the text to deliver all of its message.

After having been exposed to it, I feel the intended use of "she" is malevolent towards males. In my case it was very effective in communicating the intended message of the text.

By Geekgolightly

In texts concerning babies, I notice that many use he and she interchangably.

Do you mean that the texts you noticed used that horrible "every other" strategy. "She" once and then "he" once, then back to "she" the next time? :rolleyes:

Gawd, I hate that!! I find myself returning to the top of the paragraph to start again........over and over. Although, I don't own any books about babies, so I have no comparison.

By Geekgolightly

The S/he or "He/She" (as you seem to prefer) is visually awkward. I don't think it has gone over well. Feminists have been trying to implement that one since the 70's with little luck.

I don't prefer it. I would rather see the use of a consistent pronoun myself. Perhapse the publishers of my former text decided that they would sell more textbooks with an intended pronoun since the gender of the reader and the faculty is "not in doubt".

This brings me to a point. There are not any hetero males, besides myself, that are chiming in on this subject. It seems that they "know thier place" as you put it Geekgolightly.

By JustJenny

My schools nursing prog. is a selective admission (GPA and Test Scores) they accept the top 125 people per year. Out of 1,400 applicants - I was lucky to have made it - and out of 125 students 10% are male!

That may be true in these two cases but the numbers of males that are leaving nursing are doing so at a greater percentage and much earlier than females. Nursing schools may have learned to keep that male tuition by taking such benign actions as giving uniform options that are not obviously feminine, and other easily implemented policies. The rate of greater drop out and lack of longevity in the field would indicate that those actions are ineffective.

I would be interested in the graduation percentage rate of males in your program and how that correlates with the beginning GPA of the class as a whole. I know that number would forever be buried in the PC death pile:chuckle

Just a thought.

Brad

agent · Dec 17, 2003

So brad, what is your advice to a male like myself who wishes to get into nursing?

twarlik · Dec 17, 2003

Originally posted by Peeps Mcarthur
This thread is not off the topic for the intellectuals taking time for thoughtful rhetoric. The character in question goes deeper than the comical implications, both for the actor playing it and the audience.

You took the words right out of my mouth!

Since you all are discussing the "he/she issue," you might be interested to read what the Center for Nursing Advocacy has to say on the issue: http://www.nursingadvocacy.org/faq/nf/she_vs_he.html

I've personally never really noticed the use of one pronoun over another. Like I said in an earlier post, the text books we use seem to go out of their way to include men.

Carry on. I'm enjoying this thread...

Peeps Mcarthur · Dec 17, 2003

By Agent

So brad, what is your advice to a male like myself who wishes to get into nursing?

My advice is to disregard what a nursing counselor or faculty member says. Talk directly to males in the nursing program you're considering. Contact them independent of the faculty to assure that they won't fear consequences for speaking thier mind. Don't ask the general questions, rather, be specific to any concerns you might have. Take a look at the uniform. You will be wearing it every day.

Ask to see a past or present studyguide for the program (101). With a studyguide you can tell what the program stresses to first year students. In my case, if I had looked at a guide beforehand I would have seen the complete disregard for what I think is important. Perhapse it would have encouraged me to look at other programs or saved me the money, time, and 7 credits of "B" on my transcript that don't transfer anywhere. Force yourself to read the mission statement of the program. It's not just fluff for them. They really think that way!

Flip through the text that is recommended (look for used because the new ones will be sealed). The school library may have a copy. You may have to ask any student contacts for this or go online at amazon.com and search by ISBN. Sometimes Amazon has books in a format to view certain pages.

If I could get in a time machine and go back before my first drop date, I would do just that. Before that time I thought it was just a hang-up that I had about the steryotype. I can see now that it isn't just me. Of the 3 males in a class of 96, there is one left and this is just the start of 2nd year!:chuckle As you can see from the positive posts, not all programs are the same.

Do your home work!

If you live in Howard County Maryland PM me.

Peeps Mcarthur · Dec 17, 2003

Twarlik,

Looks like Geekgolightly has some support for the claim. It's a very wishy-washy policy though, don't you think? At least some nurses got together and thought this one up.

To be accurate you would need special politicaly correct software so you could enter the current polling numbers by gender.

Instead of Spellchecker you could call it Malechecker:chuckle

Maybe the publisher could just produce a couple of versions. They have different language versions of the same body of work. Why not? One version could be written in standard form but would only need to be printed by request, thus