Student nurse Jack MacFarland... Discuss

twarlik · Dec 10, 2003

Originally posted by Peeps Mcarthur
[schroeder's character was a great portrayal of a nurse that happens to be male, although his character wasn't around long because it wasn't very funny.
I had forgotten about "Meet the Parents". Ben Stiller's character was ridiculed, much as I was, for even speaking of nursing. I have to say, it made a connection for me. The ridicule that his character was subjected to and the repurcussions of character attacks because of it, were quite entertaining...........................unless you are a male nursing student.
I agree that it's not damaging to the profession but I think my reason is a little different from yours. Of course, a vocation that is 96% female would not have a problem with a gay male steryotype. I'm sure that it is very entertaining for most of the nursing population. Most nurses have never felt this way or even thought of how it feels.
How could it damage a vocation that really doesn't give a crap?
Well, except for an unknown number of the 4% of nursing that is comprised of male heterosexuals that are hurt by it.
I'm not in that group any longer because I've moved on to pursue a career that has no such steryotypes. A profession that is not biased or dominated in its attitudes toward gender. It actualy has its female population increasing. I believe that's because it is not gender biased in its curicculum, philosophy or public perception so females don't feel encumbered by it. It has no steryotypical public perception. If it did, I'm sure the governing body would fight against it.
The problem with nursing is more than something as simple as stereotyping sexual orientation. Nursing is gender dominated but that's not the problem. The problem is its apathy towards supporting males in the profession. Nurses may say "we welcome males into the profession" but actions speak louder than words.
I love the show and I think the actor that portrays him is brilliant, but I am hurt by the dismissal of the impact this has on a dwindling male nursing population. This is not "chest thumping" by a few homophobes. It's a real problem that nursing has yet to recognize because its male population is so insignificant.

From what I understand, your problem with the "gay man as nurse" sterotype is that it will keep men from pursuing a career in nursing. Right?

But is it really the idea of going into a female/gay man dominated profession that's keeping young men out of nursing? Look at other professions that have the same reputation for being dominated by women and gay men. If we removed the sterotype of hairdressers being gay, would heterosexual men suddenly flock to cosmetology school? I doubt it. I think that a lot of men don't want to be nurses because of their perception of what nurses are and what they do, not because they're afraid of being labeled as gay. Ask any high school senior what a nurse does and they'll probably mention wiping butts, emptying bed pans and assisting doctors. Do nurses do these things? Of course they do, but as we all know, they do so much more.

I'm a perfect example. I considered going into nursing in high school but was put off by my misperception of nurses as "hand maidens" to physicians. I didn't want to spend my days emptying bed pans. The fact that I might be seen as being gay, wasn't even an issue. Primarily because I am gay. It was only later down the road that I realized the full scope of nursing practice and decided to become a nurse.

There was a recent thread about an episode of "Scrubs" where a very experienced nurse was portrayed as being unknowledgable and subordinate to a young doctor. I didn't see the episode in question, but from what I read it sounded pretty terrible. I think that portrayls like that are so much more damaging to nursing than what's being shown on "Will and Grace."

There is so much going on now to educate young people about nursing and encourage them to enter the field. If we simply focused on educating people about WHAT nurses do, then perhaps more men would enter the field.

I think this issue is much more complicated and I'm making a lot of assumptions here, but I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

marilynmom, LPN, NP · Dec 10, 2003

Todd I think you hit the nail on the head! Your post was right on.

People in general think of nurses as bedpan emptying, butt wipers, uneducated, taking doctors orders, and not much else.

For *years* I though that was what nurses did. Did I ever think it was mostly females- yes. Did I think it was mostly gay males- uhh no, I think men are the ones with that fear. Most people have no clue what nurses do just as most people serioulsy think that pharmacists count pills all day.

Is nursing a primarily a female dominated perfession- yes! But I can think of *many* more professions that are male dominated.

I have yet to meet anyone who thinks that all male nurses are gay. Most people that I have met with and talked to think that nurses do sh*t work all day basically and why would anyone want to do that male or female?

And what the hell is wrong with gay male nurses anyways?!

Marilyn

Peeps Mcarthur · Dec 10, 2003

By Twarlik

If we removed the sterotype of hairdressers being gay, would heterosexual men suddenly flock to cosmetology school? I doubt it.

Yes, good point about male hairdressers being stereotyped. I also thought of male interior designers.

This is a good snippet of your post to show my point.

If you removed the stereotype of the male hairdresser being a homosexual, those males that felt ridiculed for wanting to be hairdressers would have one less obstacle in deciding a vocation.

By Marylin

And what the hell is wrong with gay male nurses anyways?!

There is nothing wrong with being gay at all. It's just a sexual orientation. You need to take this issue back to the indoctrination of adolescents by peer groups in acceptable behaviors. Males are indoctrinated into thier societal role by thier peer group which tells them to not be "mama's boys". It's part of survival in a social context to not cry when it hurts, not choke under pressure, have sex with multiple females and never fall in loveand aspire to a traditional male profession . Ridicule of those males that do not meet standards is required to preserve the value of those standards to the group

All that being said, you start to see that there is a complex issue with males declaring nursing as a vocation. The issues are seen by the peer group as being a violation of the rules of indoctrination. The members of the group that wish to stay within it must then follow doctrine and ridicule that individual or they would be percieved as being outside the group.

On a personal level, I'm within the traditional male peer group. Regardless of my maturity and education I feel a need to be recognized by my peer group. I can't ever belong to another peer group just as either of you can't belong to mine.

Without nursing's support of my peer group's needs, I can't be in the nursing peer group either.

marilynmom, LPN, NP · Dec 10, 2003

Originally posted by Peeps Mcarthur
By Twarlik

Without nursing's support of my peer group's needs, I can't be in the nursing peer group either.

You can't? Sure you can.

This makes me kinda chuckle because women for many many years and still to this day, have had to go into male dominated professions (and most professions are male dominated- hell most women doctors get mistaken for nurses and are not taken serioulsy by some).

I worked for an oil company for years where I was the only single women who worked there. I didn't need any of my peer's support, I just went to work. My sister works as a mechanic on fire engines and she is the only female there, she doesn't need any "peer support", and she has short hair so people probably think she is a dike too, she could care less cause she is doing what she loves to do!

I'm not trying to start a fight, but women have to deal with this all the time.

And I think the Nursing profession as a whole had made great strides to recruit more males into nursing and they have! I know at my school out of the 20 students in my (all nurse) Micro class close to half are men! Our school didn't recruit them and they are not given any special treatment. A lot of the men are paramedics, firefighters, EMT, etc and they just saw a need and nursing was something they wanted to do and they are doing it.

Marilyn

Peeps Mcarthur · Dec 10, 2003

Marilyn,

You don't need support from your peer group because you have no such doctrine as a female. A woman that has placed herself in a job traditionaly filled by a man would be descibed as corageous, driven, and of great character. A woman in those roles would only get more respect from others in her peer group wouldn't she?

Even you are "chuckling" at the notion that such a thing could even bother me, let alone, hurt. Certainly, that must reveal something about how nursing as a whole sees it.

Like I said,

How could it damage a vocation that really doesn't give a crap?

From your insignificant sample of 10 males, that haven't put on a feminine looking smock yet or noticed that the proper pronoun in all thier nursing texts screams It says "she" you idiot, not he....can't you see that?

And on and on.

If those "tough guys" say they are never bothered by it or that thier buddies just give understanding support, are lying because they know you might be "chuckling" to yourself about them if you knew how "silly" it all is.

I'm not saying these things to upset you or, God forbid, turn you against me(like I need more of that), only to try and enlighten you as to how a hetero male feels about nursing.

Brad

Peeps Mcarthur · Dec 10, 2003

Marylin,

You said,

And I think the Nursing profession as a whole had made great strides to recruit more males into nursing and they have!

Like what?

I've been gone for a year and maybe I'm just out of touch, or I never was in touch. I didn't notice any sincere attempts to understand why men seem to be avoiding the vocation in droves. I also haven't seen a patch effort to find a way to retain the men that get through school that are leaving the profession at a greater rate than the predominant female population.

I would think that would raise a great deal of concern..........if a governing body was so inclined that is.

This would dispell my not-giving-a-crap theory to a certain extent.

Brad

marilynmom, LPN, NP · Dec 10, 2003

First off why did you call me an idiot? I think that is uncalled for.

Ok let me say that I am not a male so realy I should just shut up....lol How would I know what males go through as a nurse or feel? I do not and I can't. I KNOW it would be very hard to be the only male on a unit (because I have been in a job like that before too as the ONLY female, so I know how it feels...its not easy)

I do think though that it takes a lot of confidence as a male to be a nurse and I do know some very confident male nursing students at my school :) As far as what they wear being feminine--they wear the same as everyone else at my school: white pants (which of course no one likes), blue shirt, white shoes and white lab coat/smock.

I offer nothing but support for males in nursing, simple as that. I certainly am not disregarding your feeling with this, but also understand that this is something women have been fighting for ourselves for *years* (and I'm not talking about crazy feminists)...so yes I do understand your feelings about it all, how can I not? And as far as women entering male dominated professions, society as a whole pretty much thinks they are weird or dikes, etc My sister gets this alllllll the time and so did I when I worked for the oil company as the only femle there. So I hope you don't belive that women somehow are supported (or if they are, its only because women have been fighting for this for a very long time)

My teacher was just saying the other day that there has been a large influx of male nursing students (at my school, I can t speak for anyone else) so *something* has to be happening to start changing the male nursing image at my school or else they would not be there, and you said that was insignificant but I beg to differ--changes have to start somewhere do they not? Was the first women to go to medical school insignificant? And I can't help but notice that they are confident men for the most part. I see advertisments on tv for male nurses, in magazines, I know some of the nurses (male and female) go to the local high schools to try to get kids interested in nursing (because most probably think its a bed-pan job). And the more and more male nurses we have the more just that alone will advertise itself. I just see more and more and more and more males entering nursing school, we have TONS of males interested in going into nursing at my school and I know my school is not somehow the only school like that. But some jobs are going to be more male dominated and some female dominated, none of them are every going to be equal.

Men dont want to be see as bed pan cleaners, "helpers", nuturer's (sp?!), butt wipers, taking orders from docs, etc well neither do women but women are expected to do that (not just as nurses but as mothers, etc) and men are not. Well I dont like that stereotype either!

I just think that men who want to be nurses need to become nurses and push through those stereotypes because that is the only way it is going to change. I mean nursing as a whole needs a new imagine, its not just men in nursing..... I get asked all the time "why in the world would you want to be a nurse!?" "Why would you want to wipe butts all day?" I'm sure we all have been asked those questions 'eh?

Marilyn

twarlik · Dec 10, 2003

I haven't got much more to add to this discussion, but I do have one question...

Originally posted by Peeps Mcarthur
From your insignificant sample of 10 males, that haven't put on a feminine looking smock yet or noticed that the proper pronoun in all thier nursing texts screams It says "she" you idiot, not he....can't you see that?

I'm curious as to when you attended nursing school? I'm in nursing school now and the text books seem to go to great lengths to use the "he/she" pronouns equally. Lots of pictures of male nurses, etc.
As for the feminine smocks...I don't know about other guys, but the uniform we wear, while not exactly high fashion, isn't feminine at all. My biggest complaint is that it makes me look like a pharmacist. (Not that there's anything wrong with that...)

marilynmom, LPN, NP · Dec 10, 2003

OK, this is the last thing I am going to say about this but I wanted to add a little bit more.

There are male and there are female dominated professions. Anyone from the "outside" who enters that profession (whether its a male entering nursing or a female entering engineering) is not going to have it super easy and no one but yourself is going to make those changes any easier for the young boys and girls we want to encourage going into gender dominated professions.

Nursing is certainly not the only field with this problem. Computer Sciences are 83% male, Engineering is 87% male, Physical Sciences is 77% male, Psychology is 33% male (female dominated), Library Science is 88% female, Mathematics is 75% male, there are many more like that but I just wanted to show a few (I got this from the Statistical Abstract 2002).

There are very few female dominated "professional" jobs.

But women HAVE made progress because we went out there and did it, maybe there is not many women a tall in those professiosn because they are still male dominated but there are more and more women going into them! How awesome is that?!

Did we want people to role out the red carpet for us? No and dont expect it with going into Nursing either....but that shouldn't discourage males either.

And when someone "finds out" you are in Nursing School take that opportunity to educate them about it. Talk about the science in nursing, the technology, all the hard work you do in school (get out that Physiology and Chemistry book!), say things like "can you belive there are people still out there who think that all we do is wipe butts?" and laugh about there "ignorance" (because truly it is ignorant thinking right?). I have done that personally and have ben able to educate my friends and family about what nursing is and how really hard I WORK to do this! Now they think its cool and are always looking at my books and have taken an interest in it more.

I think confidence will take you a long way too and I can't say that enough.

((hugs))

Marilyn

Peeps Mcarthur · Dec 11, 2003

By Marilyn

First off why did you call me an idiot? I think that is uncalled for.

That's a very serious accusation on this board. Calling someone an idiot, although it happends ocassionaly when someone lets thier emotions get out of hand, would be cause for editing or removing a post altogether.

As you can imagine, I, and probably everyone else that saw this statement, searched through all of my posts on this thread to see where I made this statement.

I didn't see where I posted that or inferred it. I would not want you or anyone else on this board to even feel like that is what I'm saying.

Show me what post and why you think that so we can discuss it on PM.

Brad

Peeps Mcarthur · Dec 11, 2003

By Twarlik

I'm curious as to when you attended nursing school? I'm in nursing school now and the text books seem to go to great lengths to use the "he/she" pronouns equally. Lots of pictures of male nurses, etc.

That's great Twarlik. It's good to see that someone at your school at least seems to care about that issue. At my school, which I attended last year, the proper pronoun "he" was not used. As a result, the instructors used "she" when lecturing and of course, the studyguide used "she"........oh but there's more! The videos we were assigned, as well as the audio tapes had female voice-overs as well as an all female cast...........Even the patients were female!LOL..........There were exceptions of course. When discussing catheters and bed baths it was necessary to have a member so they had to have males for those.

No wonder you would think differently. Your school seems to be in a totally different galaxy. Good for you.

Peeps Mcarthur · Dec 11, 2003

Marilyn,

Ok, I just got done reading all your posts. I really appreciate that you took the time to communicate your point and had some data to go along with it.

Good posts.

You said:

And as far as women entering male dominated professions, society as a whole pretty much thinks they are weird or dikes, etc My sister gets this alllllll the time and so did I when I worked for the oil company as the only femle there. So I hope you don't belive that women somehow are supported (or if they are, its only because women have been fighting for this for a very long time)

I can say with all sincerity that I know exactly how that feels now. I wouldn't have said it before attending nursing school. My perceptions of women in male dominated fields must be just as skewed as how women percieve men in nursing.

As far as what they wear being feminine--they wear the same as everyone else at my school: white pants (which of course no one likes), blue shirt, white shoes and white lab coat/smock.

Blue shirt?...........oh jeeze what I would have given to be able to wear that instead of the unisex (if it's not masculine it's feminine) "pharmacist outfit" as Twarlik put it. That uniform probably has something to do with the extraordinary influx of male students.

My class was 3 males to 90 something females. When I saw the uniforms I was very close to giving it up.