Stealing drugs!! what's your opinion?????

sic and tired · Jan 5, 2004

See nurses eat their young. Many nurses do not return to direct patient care. Some do with monitoring but many find other avenues to continue a profession that most love. And by statistics, for every addict or alcoholic nurse there are at lest 5 nurses who have covered for them, ignored odd behavior, taken up the slack, or any one of a 100 ways to enable their behavior to continue until it is too late. And according to the AMA both diabetes and addiction are a disease. Obviously you are one who disagrees, and I will respect your right to that opinion, but I have seen to many nurses recover and lead productive lives in recovery to know any differently than it is a treatable disease, like diabetes or schizophrenia for which the nurse or any other person did not ask for.

LilgirlRN, ADN, RN · Jan 5, 2004

i agree that once an addict always an addict but let me explain what i mean. just my personal beliefs here, no proven theories here. i believe addicts are created by circumstance for the most part, i dont believe its a disease but a sort of brainn dysfunction like obsessive compulsive disorder, i do believe its bio/psycho/social in nature. i dont believe that because you have addicts in your family that you will definietly be one. i believe it is a preference, its easier to stay high/drunk than to face your problems. an addict that isnt using but refuses to deal with their problems in a constructive way is setting him/herself up. there are something like 170 addictions, i think a lot of addicts just change from mood altering with substances to mood altering with exercise, sex, music, the computer etc. as far as a nurse who is an addict never being a nurse again goes, i dont think that's fair. tom will remind us that all it takes is one nurse coming to work drunk or high to put a pt in danger, but they dont have to be an addict to do that. the addicts who have gotten help and are being monitored by the bon are less likely to do anything like that. i think that at least in this state 80% of the nurses that are monitored stay clean. if given the right support they can function again. depending on who you listen to 10 to 15 percent of nurses have an addiction problem. imagine the ramifications of getting rid of that many nurses. just my 2 cents worth.

purplemania, BSN, RN · Jan 5, 2004

You have to remember that users are people whose minds are pretty messed up anyway so they are not using the sane, logical thinking you hope they will use.

teeituptom, BSN, RN · Jan 5, 2004

Hello LilgirlRN

Thank you for the very pleasant rebuttal of my statement. Let me tell you a little about myself. I have been in this field one way or another since 1972. Ive been an RN for 1/4 of a century. The very large majority of it in the supervisory capacity. I have been involved in dealling with over a dozen recovered addicts who have been through therapy. Only one has been a successfull recovery of more than 5 years. Of the rest all have failed their recovery at least once. Most have failed twice. I have seen 2 of them die due to their addictions. Like you I also have no facts beyond what I have observed. My one firm belief in this is that nurses who are addicts. Should never be allowed back into patient care. Yes. I understand the addiction whats behind the cycle/process/disease. But if these people turn into addicts while they are nurses there are a lot of other psycho social issues that come into play here. Not only is it in regards to pt safety. Not only is it in regard to professionalism. Nor is it only regard to the affected nurse. Whatever led them down the addictive process, needs to be changed, thus get them out of the stress and stressors that we all encounter in nursing. For some it is to great a load to carry. You will find you are doing them a favor by forcing them into some other form of employment where there is less stress and a greater possibility of them becoming a positive functioning member of family and society and the workforce again, just let it not be in nursing.

LilgirlRN, ADN, RN · Jan 5, 2004

thanks for the reply tom. i will have to go along with you on some of what you said. not everyone is cut out to be a nurse, even if they think they are. i am very glad you shared some more of your thoughts, i was beginning to think you'd just as soon see addicts tossed out of the country (i'm not trying to give you any ideas) lol. it's all up to the person.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Jan 5, 2004

Gee Tom why didn't you say that in the first place instead of coming across as a cold-hearted snake. LOL Perhaps letting them go and not giving them a chance to remain in the nursing field is the best because the recovery rates are so dismal. I don't have the experience you have, so I can't say. Perhaps a temporary booting out, rather than a permanent. I can't imagine loosing good nurses without giving them the opportunity to recover.

LilgirlRN, about your statement that it's easier to use drugs than to face your problems is a bit complicated to me. Take for example the persons in Tom's post. Is it easier to destroy families, ruin your career, become homeless, go to jail, to die? Seems odd. Seems like it would be easier to just quit doing drugs. But I do like you wonder when a person is relapsing, he/she is he or she making the choice to escape the pain rather than deal. Probably yes. Unfortunately the pain is escaped for about 8 seconds, then it's magnified and more added on. Very complicated.

Sometimes, I play on the computer, watch tv, or read just not to have to deal with life. Did that last Thursday. Felt horribly guilty, but it's better than drugs I guess. :)

I also think we are raised in a society that fosters that kind of behavior. We are stressed, we go to the doctor and he prescribes a pill. We are depressed, we get a pill. We want to relax and unwind after a hard days work, we drink a beer or glass of wine. We aren't raised learning good coping mechanisms at all. I hope I don't get flamed for that, because I understand fully there are times when anxiety and stress is too much to handle and medical intervention is necessary. But we are raised to self-medicate and to medicate through prescription and alcohol.

sic and tired · Jan 5, 2004

Yes often it is easier to do all the things that result in consequences rather than face addiction because facing the addiction is impossible when you are completely unaware that it exists. Denial is one of the primary symptoms. I agree that many nurses should not return to direct patient care where medications are involved, but there are actually many places even in direct patient care where nurses can and are very effective. tim I am sorry that you have not seen the successes that I have seen with those suffering from addiction. Yes I have seen some relapse and yes I have seen some die, but I have seen many others become successful and productive people once again. Many remain in nursing. I have seen better success with those monitored by good IPN programs unfortunately they are not the same in every state and the success rate varies across every state. Personally those I have seen succeed most often are those who are involved in a monitoring program and an ongoing program of recovery. People can and do change their lives every day, and nurses are not any different. There are ways to monitor these nurses, assure public safety, and help the nurse in trouble rather than turning a blind eye to what is going on until it is too late. Most nurses are given no education in a disease that ravages their profession. For me that is the saddest thing of all. If we understood it better we could interven earlier and provide appropriate intervention and support for those who return to the fold rather than judgement and ridicule.

RN30years · Jan 7, 2004

This is all very interesting to me as I am under investigation right now for Documentation errors involving narcotics. I worked in a very busy PACU for 10+ years. I am a devoted and very knowlegable nurse. My drug test was negative. I have never abused narcotics in 30 years of nursing

My DON reported me to the State board Jan 2003. I had delivered 6 Mg of Morphine and recorded a witnessed waste of 5 mg.(1mg to much) Another instance i gave Fentanyl without a MD order. I singed it out for the patient and wasted the unused portion with a witness. I'm sure I had a verbal order (as we recieved them hundreds of times a day) but must have neglected to write it down. there were 3 other similar errors in a 2 month period. I must say that there were drugs missing from the nacatics cabinet 2 weeks previous... but I was on Vacation that week!!! my errors were found on routine chart audits

They(BON) called me once to question me, said they would continue with the investigation, and I have heard nothing since. I quit my job on the spot, probably would have been terminated anyway..... I felt I could not work there if they thought that I was "diverting" drugs or whatever. I have been too upset to seek another job because I don't know what the results of this investigation are????? I have hired a lawyer but he says we just have to wait on their findings before we can proceed. I know I made careless mistakes but feel I am the subject of a Witch hunt...why is it taking so long. I left my job on Jan 4 2003. has anyone been thru anything similar? Will I get a hearing or anything?? :confused:

sic and tired · Jan 7, 2004

Investigations take a significant amount of time. It usually depends on the state and whether the Pharmacy Board has been called in on the investigation. Your attorney is right it is a waiting game. A friend of mine was 2 years clean and sober before she recieved notification of a hearing, and it was another 6 months for the hearings and her sentencing. Of course she was an addict and in recovery at the time. So her consequences came down after she was involved in recovery. I cannot say whether what you say is true or not and I pass no judgement. But I must let you know that whether it is a state board investigation or a pharmacy investigation your explaination of the occurances is one that they have heard many times and from those who are addicts and who were diverting. So understand their caution during this time. I believe that your attorney might be able to contact your state BON to find the staus of your license and estimated time of the investigation and that way he might be able to guide you further. If you want more information on jobs that nurses can get who have had action on their license you can go to http://brucienne.com/nir/ and there is a link for nurses in recovery and it gives some information and links. Take care and hope things work out for you

RN30years · Jan 8, 2004

Thanks sic and tired, at least I now know it may take much longer.

thanks for your advice and the Link. I will check it out.

vanburbian · Jan 9, 2004

Originally posted by teeituptom
Hello LilgirlRN

Thank you for the very pleasant rebuttal of my statement. Let me tell you a little about myself. I have been in this field one way or another since 1972. Ive been an RN for 1/4 of a century. The very large majority of it in the supervisory capacity. I have been involved in dealling with over a dozen recovered addicts who have been through therapy. Only one has been a successfull recovery of more than 5 years. Of the rest all have failed their recovery at least once. Most have failed twice. I have seen 2 of them die due to their addictions. Like you I also have no facts beyond what I have observed. My one firm belief in this is that nurses who are addicts. Should never be allowed back into patient care. Yes. I understand the addiction whats behind the cycle/process/disease. But if these people turn into addicts while they are nurses there are a lot of other psycho social issues that come into play here. Not only is it in regards to pt safety. Not only is it in regard to professionalism. Nor is it only regard to the affected nurse. Whatever led them down the addictive process, needs to be changed, thus get them out of the stress and stressors that we all encounter in nursing. For some it is to great a load to carry. You will find you are doing them a favor by forcing them into some other form of employment where there is less stress and a greater possibility of them becoming a positive functioning member of family and society and the workforce again, just let it not be in nursing.

Tom,

where do i start?

first, let me tell you a little about MYSELF.....i AM a recovering nurse addict, and in my opinion, your view and feelings about addiction probably has a LOT to do with the little sucess you have seen, i am betting that the people you were directly involved with clearly realized your feelings on the subject, and the lack of support from their supervisor may have had a slight impact on their sobriety, the "milieu" if you will, plays a part in recovery.

second, i don't believe that you actually do understand the "cycle/process/disease", or your posts would be quite different.

as far as "whatever led them down the addictive process needing to be changed", i couldn't agree more, and as sicandtired stated earlier, nurses DO eat their young, and she's not just talking about fellow floor staff, i believe that she may mean managements attitude and lack of support also plays into this.

i agree, nursing is a great load to carry, and stressors do need to be addressed, but to be honest, for every nurse addict, you will find a unique story as to what led them there. i wish that you would actually educate yourself as to what the nurse monitoring programs do, perhaps then your irrational fear of addicts tretaing patients could be addressed. unfortunately, like another poster mentioned, not all states are treated equal, many dont have any real program in place.

you seem so concerned with the nurses who are actually being monitored, but i'll tell you a little secret-in my former job, where i was 1 of 2 nurses in the "program", on a floor with 19 staff nurses, i knew who all had the same problem, whether it be the 'scrips they got in thailand or mexico, the pain pills they took while on duty, but had a prescription for, or the bottle of wine they drank every nite, and it was a fairly large percentage- out of 19, 7 nurses had an addiction of one type or the other.

i think sicandtired gave good advice when she told the other nurse to see the nurses in recovery site, http://brucienne.com/nir/

it is highly informative, and educational. why not avail yourself of the opportunity to learn something that is based on fact, and not just your personal experience, which appears to be tainted and biased from the get go, why i don't know, don't need to know, but i can objectively see some issues here.

FYI, one of the largest correlations between nurses remaining clean and sober versus relapsing? you guessed it, the support they get form their work environment, i.e., their boss...

by the way, research has shown that the majority of nurse addicts, as well as other health care professionals who are addicts, are actually the highest performers, the strongest team members, the compassionate ones,the most loved and appreciated by their patients, the reliable, responsible, dependable, take charge nurses, the ones who committ fewer errors than most. you know, the smart ones~ the nurse you want to take care of you.

p.s.~it's too bad i'll never work for you someday, as i can gaurantee i would be one of the best nurses you have ever had the pleasure to work with. the same goes for the majority of my recovering nurse friends.....you and your patients loss i'm afraid.

good luck with broadening your horizons...

sheri

teeituptom, BSN, RN · Jan 9, 2004

Hello hoopschick

Where do you work???????

Also, you seem to want to lay the blame of relapsing on lack of support from peers and supervisors. I am quite familiar with the 12 step program and also the impaired nurse program here in Texas. I also recognize its not unusual for addicts to relapse within their first year. But there is only ONE PERSON responsible for whether a nurse addict recovers or not. That is the Individual Nurse themself. No one else should be made to feel the blame for their failure. They have only themselves to blame.....