let's pretend that we agree to disagree on the adn vs bsn debate and start all over again with nursing education. let's call it a "professional registered nursing degree program."
first, answer the poll question: do you believe that the rn's educational needs--both clinical and theoretical--are fully served by today's adn or bsn education programs?
then, tell us what types of courses today's nurse needs in order to be best prepared to enter the workplace.
this may be a different perspective than what you are lookig for, but here are my thoughts as i hope to be selected this fall for entry to ADN-RN program for spring 2006. here is what i hope for in my program:
1) a recommended a&p review book/handout stating what needs to be reveiwed in depth for which chapters etc... or maybe the teacher could lecture on the applicable A&P and videotape it and make copies of the series available in the library for students to review on site. (a psych teacher did this and it was helpful)
2) A clinical lab monitor who is qualified to instruct or tutor the students instead of just a monitor keeping an eye on the equipment but can't help in your learing process. Plenty of clinical practice time available.
3) teachers who don't lecture by regurgitating the book. I know how to read. Focus on the practical application.
4) teachers who are available for questions during and after class and who are approachable and open minded.
5) some degree of clarity. I don't want to read in the book the complete opposite of what i hear in class, and then have to wonder which answer the teacher wants on a test.
6)no group projects or as few as possible. i want to be responsible for my own learning not anyone else.
7) hopefully appropriate direction at our clinical sites from the nurses and instructors.
8) practice NCLEX test questions and the answers with rationale.
9) i want a thorough class on legalities in nursing including delegation, and supervison of LPN/CNA etc...as well as abandonment and neglect and the proper channels to go through if there is an issue with the BON.
10) exposure to different types of medical equipment/procedures.
11) in depth information on disease control and EIDs.
there is probably a lot more and I'll find that out once i am in the program, but for now this is what i am hoping to get out of my program.
Maybe I need to rephrase the question, because I don't think you understood what I asked. I wasn't asking how to make it easier or water down the BSN.
Let's be a little hypothetical here so I can clarify.
Scenario: there is no ADN or BSN program. Create a universal nursing program that gives nurses the ability to start working as a professional nurse--preferably without a long orientation and preceptorship on the job post-graduate--that is rich in both theory and clinical.
Your intention is to poll people to gather the "ultimate, dream curriculum" for nurses. No?
Before doing that, you need to know what works, and what doesn't. Need to know what are the educational goals for nurses. Without this data, then the responses won't even be in the same context.
And I wasn't suggesting that anything be "watered down." I was trying to get people to identify where one program of study stopped and what, if anything was in the other that might be kept. Not identifying that info just throws the baby out with the bath water.
Before doing that, you need to know what works, and what doesn't. Need to know what are the educational goals for nurses. Without this data, then the responses won't even be in the same context.
Sure, that may well be the case, but this is a very unofficial poll, so I don't think that's necessary.
A lot of people post here who have been through all three types of programs as well as students who've been through none, and still others have investigated the various programs and have chosen only one or two--there's quite a variety.
My point in starting this thread was to end the eternal ADN vs BSN debate by giving us all a new way to look at nursing education.
For instance, my idea would not only "professionalize" our image, but would satisfy those of us who insist that some programs (which shall remain nameless to avoid tangential debates ) are top-heavy with theory and others are top-heavy with clinicals, yet neither type of program actually gives the new nurse enough clinical time to step right into a job--the hospital carries that burden.
In a system that's already overburdened with expense. Is that really necessary?
How about a year's worth of Gen. Ed. requirements which must include Biology, Chemistry, English, a history, a humanities, and a math, and whatever else is deemed necessary for Gen. Ed. Second year--Nursing Theory, Microbiology and A&P. Third year--Full-time Clinicals in all areas of a hospital.
That's just an example.
A student comes out of that program and needs orientation and some preceptoring but not months of it. And it's not so hard on the preceptor (who's already about toasted with the other OTJ responsibilities.)
Every time I see a new grad thread, the new grads are going home in tears night after night because learning OTJ is just so difficult. I believe that burnout starts right there. I've heard many people say that it takes a few months or a year or even two years to really feel comfortable and confident as a nurse. We all just accept it, but why not change it?
So, given all the problems that beset the nursing profession, new nurse, the trainer of the new nurse, the overburdened hospitals and the healthcare system as we have it (can't change that--------yet ) how should nursing education adapt to meet those needs?
Not a nurse, but would like to participate. I think definetly more hands-on rather than gen ed's. Or maybe substitute the public speaking, art history, etc for more nursing geared courses or clical practice for that matter (if at all possbile of course).
11) in depth information on disease control and EIDs.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Can you elaborate on what you mean by "disease control". I have an idea, but would rather here what you're meaning. Sorry, but I'm drawing a blank as to the meaning of "EIDs".
Let's pretend that we agree to disagree on the ADN vs BSN debate and start all over again with nursing education. Let's call it a "Professional Registered Nursing Degree Program."
First, answer the poll question: Do you believe that the RN's educational needs--both clinical and theoretical--are fully served by today's ADN or BSN education programs?
Then, tell us what types of courses today's nurse needs in order to be best prepared to enter the workplace.
I would like to see any BSN progam be 5 years because I do not think these programs give their students enought hands on experience. They put their students at a decided disadvantage.
I know a hospial recruiter here who makes several resruiting trips to Canada every year to recruit RN's. You know why? She said that Canadian RN graduates have an entire semester (at the end of their training) of all clinical so by the time they graduate, they can work effectively on a floor and it is as if they have already had a real solid orientation to actual nursing. They are much more comfortable stepping into a patient assignment.
I think the idea of all BSN nurses was a stab at making nursing look "more professional" to the lay person. I think it backfired, frankly.
I would encourage any potential nursing student to ultimately get a college degree: BSN or otherwise. I have a non-nursing Bachelor's, because nursing was my second career. But instead of a BSN, I have chosen to enhance my education with advanced certifications in my field. These are a whole lot more helpful to me and what I want for a career.
Everyone's needs are different. I truly also feel that NO ONE should become an administrator until he/she has done extensive floor nursing. You can't be an effective leader (or professor) until you know how to be a "real nurse." The last person who should be making decisions for nurses are nurses who are clueless and so many top level administrators are truly clueless. Some have never done much if any patient care. Don't get me started..........
Bottom line is that a BSN for all nurses is NEVER going to make our profession look better. Until nurses learn how to stand up for themselves and out profession, nothing will change, regardless of the path one has chosen to nursing.
Not a nurse, but would like to participate. I think definetly more hands-on rather than gen ed's. Or maybe substitute the public speaking, art history, etc for more nursing geared courses or clical practice for that matter (if at all possbile of course).
The last person who should be making decisions for nurses are nurses who are clueless and so many top level administrators are truly clueless. Some have never done much if any patient care. Don't get me started..........
Not to get you started.......but I totally agree!
(As I stated above, I disagree with the idea that it's nursing school's job to produce nurses ready to function on the floor, but more clinical time wouldn't hurt either.)
includes 1965 bsn proposal, the relevance of adn education, basis of education for professional practice and revising education for the 21st century along with commentary.
let's pretend that we agree to disagree on the adn vs bsn debate and start all over again with nursing education. let's call it a "professional registered nursing degree program."
first, answer the poll question: do you believe that the rn's educational needs--both clinical and theoretical--are fully served by today's adn or bsn education programs?
then, tell us what types of courses today's nurse needs in order to be best prepared to enter the workplace.
having had the experience, in a group, of developing a nursing program, for a college without one, i would like to point out a few things everyone appears to be ignoring.
the basic requirements, for obtaining either an ad,as or bsn is set by both the state's department of education, as well as the college. certain core courses are required, regardless of what one's major is, nursing or computors.
each department sets it's own core requirements, as well as electives. if the program leads to a license, the state also sets the minimum number of theory and/or clinical hours required. a program is free to add hours but may not substract them.
each department must arrange for it's own clinical experiences with outside agencies. and this is much more difficult then some may imagine it is. there are generally other programs competing for the same times and spaces. outsides agencies and programs must be aware of and cover the leqal consquences of having students in their agencies.
the program i was a student in, required we meet with the chosen university, which was on long island, periodically. i was chosen to be the groups representative because i was in the city twice a week. i also had to meet with representatives of agencies we would attempt to obtain contracts with, for clinical experiences. one would think, with the number of hospitals and home health agencies available, my job would have been easy and simple. it was not. the number of programs and the number of students and the number of quality facilities limited ones choices and number of available clinical hours. we opted to do what two other programs had done and required summer session clinical experiences.
and of course, we had to take into consideration the number of faculty members, the number of students, the impact of the number of students on the demands of other department faculty and the cost.
so, adding to clinical hours and subtracting from core requirements is not as simple and easy as some seem to believe it is.
Having had the experience, in a group, of developing a nursing program, for a college without one, I would like to point out a few things everyone appears to be ignoring.
The basic requirements, for obtaining either an AD,AS or BSN is set by both the state's Department of Education, as well as the college. Certain core courses are required, regardless of what one's major is, nursing or computors.
Once again I'm encouraging everyone who participates in this thread to truly think outside the box and not consider practicality of application so much as what student nurses need.
I'm so impressed with this piece's abstract I'm going to quote it here (boldface added by me) as a guide for those of you who are so locked into the idea that if it isn't an ADN, it must be a BSN or Masters.
Suppose it doesn't have to be? Suppose that nursing is truly autonomous and we can make our own schools with our own rules?
Joel, L. (May 31, 2002) "Education for Entry into Nursing Practice: Revisited for the 21st Century" Online Journal of Issues in Nursing. Vol. #7 No. #2, Morificecript 4. Available: http://www.nursingworld.org/ojin/topic18/tpc18_4.htm
EDUCATION FOR ENTRY INTO NURSING PRACTICE: REVISITED FOR THE 21ST CENTURY
Lucille A. Joel, EdD, RN, FAAN
ABSTRACT
Professions progress through an expected evolutionary process. This consists of expanding the scientific base, creating technical workers to share in the essential mission of the field, standardizing and up-grading education for entry into practice, and moving forward with specialization. Nursing's progression has been spotty and incomplete, largely because of the influence of external communities of interest, and the fact that nurses have resisted and personalized decisions that are necessary for future generations.
For nursing, education for entry into practice has been the most contentious issue in this scheme of professional evolution. For almost 100 years, nurses have debated "entry", but moved to little planned change. Rather, nursing has been swept along by a host of social and educational circumstances that had little to do with nursing. The result has been a myriad of programs with graduates used interchangeably in the real world. This absence of consensus within the discipline of nursing causes consumer confusion, seriously compromises our ability to serve the public, and is intimately associated with the nursing shortage of 2002. What is adequate educational preparation for entry into professional practice for the 21st Century? Agreement on this issue is an essential step towards a preferred future.
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) are top-heavy with theory and others are top-heavy with clinicals, yet neither type of program actually gives the new nurse enough clinical time to step right into a job--the hospital carries that burden.
smk1, LPN
2,195 Posts
this may be a different perspective than what you are lookig for, but here are my thoughts as i hope to be selected this fall for entry to ADN-RN program for spring 2006. here is what i hope for in my program:
1) a recommended a&p review book/handout stating what needs to be reveiwed in depth for which chapters etc... or maybe the teacher could lecture on the applicable A&P and videotape it and make copies of the series available in the library for students to review on site. (a psych teacher did this and it was helpful)
2) A clinical lab monitor who is qualified to instruct or tutor the students instead of just a monitor keeping an eye on the equipment but can't help in your learing process. Plenty of clinical practice time available.
3) teachers who don't lecture by regurgitating the book. I know how to read. Focus on the practical application.
4) teachers who are available for questions during and after class and who are approachable and open minded.
5) some degree of clarity. I don't want to read in the book the complete opposite of what i hear in class, and then have to wonder which answer the teacher wants on a test.
6)no group projects or as few as possible. i want to be responsible for my own learning not anyone else.
7) hopefully appropriate direction at our clinical sites from the nurses and instructors.
8) practice NCLEX test questions and the answers with rationale.
9) i want a thorough class on legalities in nursing including delegation, and supervison of LPN/CNA etc...as well as abandonment and neglect and the proper channels to go through if there is an issue with the BON.
10) exposure to different types of medical equipment/procedures.
11) in depth information on disease control and EIDs.
there is probably a lot more and I'll find that out once i am in the program, but for now this is what i am hoping to get out of my program.