Socialized Medicine the myths and the facts

[madwife2002]

The first and the most obvious concern is the cost to the patient and their family, we all know how devastating an illness can be for patients and their family many times I have witnessed the despair when a diagnoses meant further treatment which insurances question and in some cases wont cover. I have seen patients needing costly drugs to keep them alive and being unable to afford them, causing repeated admissions to repair the damage so called none compliance has caused. The first question in none compliance is were the pts actually refusing to take their medication or was it simply they could not afford to buy their medication because they don't have enough money and other bills need to be paid first? If the real reason is the cost then surely it would be more simple of we provided these medications at a more effective price or that all medications cost $5 no matter what they had? Outrageous I hear you shout but the cost of the repeated admission is far more costly than by helping prevent a repeat admission, by providing medicine they can afford.

How about blood tests could these not be done in the doctors office before the pt leaves for home and forgets to go and have a blood draw, or simply cannot get to the lab to have them drawn. I have personally waited in doctors office hours (and paid for the privilege) then been sent to the lab, miles away to sit and wait for blood work to be done. Why could the doctors not employ somebody to be at the office to draw blood on patients?

We should be looking at improving preventative medicine rather than patch it up and see.

Many times I have seen patients discharged with a new diagnoses of diabetes, no follow up at home can be organised because in my city nothing exists to assist these people. There should be a diabetic home nurse who monitors these patients in their own home-rationale, this would again help prevent admissions for diabetic complications, and none compliance.

So you wonder what has this got to do with socialized medicine. Well, in the UK if you have...

• Children
• Over 60 for women and over 65 for men
• Diabetes
• Asthma
• Thyroid problems, etc...

...then you get all your medicines for free.

There are in place specialized RN's who focus is on preventative care in the community. There are telephone help lines which anybody can utilize for free.

Maternity care is free a midwife will be assigned to you for the duration of your pregnancy and up to 6 weeks later. The cost of the birth-nothing no matter how you deliver.

I have been asked what kind of care do you receive in a socialized medicine country and I ask them, I am a product of socialized medicine you tell me how my care differs from nurses who have paid outrageous amounts of money to train as a nurse?

Of course even in the UK you can have private care if you chose to pay, this is an advantage if you need hip replacements, knee replacements, eye surgeries-other wise you may have to wait. There are initiatives in place to reduce waiting times for surgeries in the NHS and I hear that dr's can now book surgeries from their office at hospitals all over the UK which helps reduce waiting times, plus hospitals get fined if they don't meet their quota.

I agree MRI's and CT's are not as freely available, but again initiatives are in place to improve the waiting times. Emergency care no different all patients will receive emergency care.

Poor conditions yes there are poor hospitals and there are excellent hospitals, no different to Phoenix AZ.

Questions??

[elkpark]

What world are you folks living in? Those polls sure don't reflect the majorities who are against Socialized Health Care where I come from. I can honestly say that I've never even talked with an RN or Physician who is for this unconstitutional nonsense. Maybe that's because where I come from folks actually care about and esteem our Constitution. For those Americans on this thread who are proponents of Socialized Health Care, have you ever read in entirety our Constitution and Bill of Rights? Take care and Saude!

We're living in the real world. We value and esteem the US Constitution, inc. the Bill of Rights just as much as you do (and, yes, I've read it and am v. familiar with the content, probably more so than many of the anti-reform zealots) -- and thanks for repeatedly implying that we're all stupid and blind because we don't share your particular opinions.

The point of scientifically designed and conducted polls is that they reflect a truer picture of public opinion than someone's individual little area. Nearly all the nurses I know, and plenty of the physicians, support a single-payer system or at least the proposed "public option" plan. The fact that you don't know us personally doesn't mean that your personal little circle accurately reflects the larger public view.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." (emphasis mine)

Welfare

welfare n. 1. health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being. [http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#WELFARE)

One of the main purposes of "ordain(ing) and establish(ing) this Constitution" was to promote the health and well-being of the citizenry -- which is exactly what a universal healthcare system would do. We all pay taxes to provide "free" police and firefighting services for everyone, we all pay taxes to provide "free" primary and secondary schools for everyone; I don't understand why we don't see healthcare services the same way -- we all pay taxes to make sure everyone has the services available. Every other industrialized nation on the planet has some kind of universal coverage program, and they spend less and have better healthcare outcomes than we do -- why is anyone still supporting our current system?????

[Saúde]

I am even more agreeable w/ the non used of the word socialism---it's use was just not appropriate

Hilarious. Your words are like a white horse with black stripes saying it resents the fact that others call it a Zebra.:lol_hitti

Throughout all my threads I've raised for debate several solutions to our health care problem. But it appears the proponents of Socialized Health Care only want a ONE-SIDED debate here. They really don't want to discuss SOLUTIONS that will work. Why shouldn't these COST-FREE solutions be tried first? Unlike the Socialized Health Care Plan that is being prepared to be proposed in Congress which would take years to implement and TRILLIONS of dollars to sustain, these solutions could start effective immediately and be virtually cost-free to ALL Americans. These solutions would preserve capitalism and our Constitution, it would lower costs, increase competition, and most importantly IMMEDIATELY and UNIVERSALLY help people! Republicans and Democrats??? WE NEED TO DROP THE DEAD WEIGHT OF BOTH PARTIES! Most troubling to me is why more emphasis is not being placed on #4!!! (see below)

1) Breakup the Insurance Monopolies. (more competition resulting in lower premiums)

2) Allow individuals to cross State lines to purchase insurance policies just as our Congress and other Federal employees can. (more competition resulting in lower premiums)

3) Encourage States to deregulate their laws on how insurance companies can sell their policies.

4) Allow individual and family tax write-off's for insurance premiums. (It is legal for Businesses and Corporations to write off insurance premium costs. WHY NOT THE INDIVIDUAL? This would effectively END our uninsured population at NO COST to the taxpayer.)

5) Tax deductible Health care savings accounts. (For everyone, but especially for those who want the freedom to choose a high deductible policy)

6) Encourage increased utilization of walk-health clinics and community nursing for non-emergency events. Encourage the increased utilization of NP's.

7) These solutions would make insurance premiums affordable to nearly all family's. No working family would have an excuse not to be insured. With nearly everyone having insurance, the Hospitals, Physicians, and everyone involved in the Health care system would get PAID. Because all involved are getting paid this would result in a Hospitals increased ability to provide more charity services to those who are truly unable to acquire insurance, similar to how it used to be before the HMO's, Medicare, and Medicaid got involved.

[madwife2002, BSN, RN]

Hilarious. Your words are like a white horse with black stripes saying it resents the fact that others call it a Zebra.:lol_hitti

Throughout all my threads I've raised for debate several solutions to our health care problem. But it appears the proponents of Socialized Health Care only want a ONE-SIDED debate here. They really don't want to discuss SOLUTIONS that will work. Why shouldn't these COST-FREE solutions be tried first? Unlike the Socialized Health Care Plan that is being prepared to be proposed in Congress which would take years to implement and TRILLIONS of dollars to sustain, these solutions could start effective immediately and be virtually cost-free to ALL Americans. These solutions would preserve capitalism and our Constitution, it would lower costs, increase competition, and most importantly IMMEDIATELY and UNIVERSALLY help people! Republicans and Democrats??? WE NEED TO DROP THE DEAD WEIGHT OF BOTH PARTIES! Most troubling to me is why more emphasis is not being placed on #4!!! (see below)

1) Breakup the Insurance Monopolies. (more competition resulting in lower premiums)

2) Allow individuals to cross State lines to purchase insurance policies just as our Congress and other Federal employees can. (more competition resulting in lower premiums)

3) Encourage States to deregulate their laws on how insurance companies can sell their policies.

4) Allow individual and family tax write-off's for insurance premiums. (It is legal for Businesses and Corporations to write off insurance premium costs. WHY NOT THE INDIVIDUAL? This would effectively END our uninsured population at NO COST to the taxpayer.)

5) Tax deductible Health care savings accounts. (For everyone, but especially for those who want the freedom to choose a high deductible policy)

6) Encourage increased utilization of walk-health clinics and community nursing for non-emergency events. Encourage the increased utilization of NP's.

7) These solutions would make insurance premiums affordable to nearly all family's. No working family would have an excuse not to be insured. With nearly everyone having insurance, the Hospitals, Physicians, and everyone involved in the Health care system would get PAID. Because all involved are getting paid this would result in a Hospitals increased ability to provide more charity services to those who are truly unable to acquire insurance, similar to how it used to be before the HMO's, Medicare, and Medicaid got involved.

I think you have raised some good points and I for one would love to see some changes made to make health insurance more affordable and bring some competition to their companies.

Have you noticed if a doctor/hospital sends a bill the insurance company negotiate and they get it cheaper. If you or I get a bill to pay there is little or no room to negotiate apart from offering to pay monthly-the full amount.

[GiGiOm]

Are any of you writing your legislators? Congress.org is conducting a poll: Are you for or against health care reform? Please visit this site if you haven't already and take the poll. According to the poll last night, 74% of people are opposed to health care reform. Either the right wing scare tactics are working or the people in favor of reform are sitting in silence and hoping that some meaningful reform will happen. So, nurses, please make yourself heard. I challenge all those in favor of reform to take the poll and let their reps know what they think. They need to do their jobs and stop pandering to the CEOs of Big Insurance and their fringe special interest groups. Just my .

[madwife2002, BSN, RN]

Below is the latest polls from Google.

CBS news

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/19/opinion/polls/main5098517.shtml

Rasmussen Reports

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/august_2009/without_public_option_enthusiasm_for_health_care_reform_especially_among_democrats_collapses

I have my own opinions, like everyone else, but I work to find information that is non-biased and factual. If you don't like these sources, let me know and I can post more.

GiGiom according to these links the opporsite is true of the polls you are citing. What are your links??

[lamazeteacher]

Quote from Saude's post # 176: "....... Without an enumerated power, the power to legislate Health Care IS reserved solely to the States. If you don't want to respect that FACT then you don't respect the Constitution or the freedom it reserves for you which allows you to speak freely on this website........"

Respecting the constitution by maintaining a broken system and relegating health care concerns to individual states with less negotiating power with pharmaceutical companies (due to a smaller number of covered people in a new health care system), is not what the writers of it might approve!

Times change, ammendments to that old, in this situation, misunderstood document becomes necessary, and using it to block urgently needed health care change, is irresponsible! It is not humane or fiscally appropriate to delay health reform.

[elkpark]

Are any of you writing your legislators? Congress.org is conducting a poll: Are you for or against health care reform? Please visit this site if you haven't already and take the poll. According to the poll last night, 74% of people are opposed to health care reform. Either the right wing scare tactics are working or the people in favor of reform are sitting in silence and hoping that some meaningful reform will happen. So, nurses, please make yourself heard. I challenge all those in favor of reform to take the poll and let their reps know what they think. They need to do their jobs and stop pandering to the CEOs of Big Insurance and their fringe special interest groups. Just my .

I visited the congress.com site. It is a tool you can use to contact Representatives and/or Senators and share your views on current issues. What the site says is not that they are conducting a poll, but just that, so far, of the people who have used that site to contact their elected representatives about healthcare reform, 74% of them have written in opposition to reform. That figure is not the result of a scientifically designed and conducted poll, like the CBS or Rasmussen polls posted by dlatimer.

I've written quite a lot of Senators and Representatives, a few different "rounds" of letters at this point, in favor of a single payer system or at least the "public option" plan currently proposed, but haven't used the congress.com website to do so.

[Saúde]

and thanks for repeatedly implying that we're all stupid and blind because we don't share your particular opinions. I don't think you're stupid at all!

The point of scientifically designed and conducted polls is that they reflect a truer picture of public opinion than someone's individual little area. Stats can be very easily biased based on the wording of the question. Please don't put that much credence in them.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." (emphasis mine)

Welfare

welfare n. 1. health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being. [http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#WELFARE) - It's wonderful to be passionate about your cause. But please be passionate with your eyes wide open as I am. I do not have an ego. I am willing to change my thinking about a matter when the truth is not on my side. Because TRUTH is what I'm after. You have a predisposed bias which makes you blind to the truth. If this wasn't so, then you would have included the rest of the Constitutional definition of welfare. Let me include it for you. It said - "Welfare in today's context also means organized efforts on the part of public or private organizations to benefit the poor, or simply public assistance. This is not the meaning of the word as used in the Constitution."

First, the general welfare clause is one of the most misunderstood and abused clauses in the Constitution. So please don't feel bad. You are not alone in your uneducated misinterpretation.

Second, the Constitution wasn't meant to be a brain-teaser! The Constitution only gives Congress a few specific powers as can be read in Article 1, Section 8. Many, including Madison and Hamilton didn't care much for the broad term of general welfare and thought that there was a potential it could be misinterpreted by those in the future who had forgotten the original intent. hmmm. That was one of the reasons the 10th Amendment was passed to make certain it was clear to everyone that ALL powers not explicitly enumerated in Article 1, Section 8 were to be denied to the Federal Government and given solely to the States. You and liberal politicians, Republican and Democrats alike, can put a spin on it all you want but it doesn't change the FACT of the original intent, as can be read in the Federalist. (a Constitutional commentary written by our founding fathers) Using your logic would give our Federal Government an unlimited power to take away any right they wished, such as free speech of our press, the right of gun ownership, etc., if they someday decided it was not good for the common defense or general welfare of the United States. Read the Federalist please. You won't be confused any longer and it'll really open your eyes to what is right and wrong according to our Constitution.

One of the main purposes of "ordain(ing) and establish(ing) this Constitution" was to promote the health and well-being of the citizenry - That is NOT true -- which is exactly what a universal healthcare system would do. We all pay taxes to provide "free" police and firefighting services for everyone,-That is not true, these are municipalities funded by cities and states. we all pay taxes to provide "free" primary and secondary schools for everyone;-That is not true, schools are a State function. I believe States should stop participating in Federal Programs which mandate they give up their freedoms in order to accept Federal Funds. I don't understand why we don't see healthcare services the same way -- we all pay taxes to make sure everyone has the services available. Because Socialized Health Care is Specific Welfare not General Welfare. Specific welfare is where a poor person gains but the rich person loses. With general welfare everyone must gain and no one must be advantaged at the loss of another. Specific welfare is in affect the establishment of an oligarchy.

Every other industrialized nation on the planet has some kind of universal coverage program, and they spend less and have better healthcare outcomes than we do -That is not true. please watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLyj1cVSaP0 -- why is anyone still supporting our current system????? -One thing we can agree on. Here's some of my ideas on how to change our current system within the scope of our Constitution and while encouraging choice, competition, reduced costs and most importantly, freedom.

1) Breakup the Insurance Monopolies. (more competition resulting in lower premiums)

2) Allow individuals to cross State lines to purchase insurance policies just as our Congress and other Federal employees can. (more competition resulting in lower premiums)

3) Encourage States to deregulate their laws on how insurance companies can sell their policies.

4) Allow individual and family tax write-off's for insurance premiums. (It is legal for Businesses and Corporations to write off insurance premium costs. WHY NOT THE INDIVIDUAL? This would effectively END our uninsured population at NO COST to the taxpayer.)

5) Tax deductible Health care savings accounts. (For everyone, but especially for those who want the freedom to choose a high deductible policy)

6) Encourage increased utilization of walk-health clinics and community nursing for non-emergency events. Encourage the increased utilization of NP's.

7) These solutions would make insurance premiums affordable to nearly all family's. No working family would have an excuse not to be insured. With nearly everyone having insurance, the Hospitals, Physicians, and everyone involved in the Health care system would get PAID. Because all involved are getting paid this would result in a Hospitals increased ability to provide more charity services to those who are truly unable to acquire insurance, similar to how it used to be before the HMO's, Medicare, and Medicaid got involved.

take care and Saude!

[lamazeteacher]

Below is the latest polls from Google.

CBS news

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/19/opinion/polls/main5098517.shtml

Rasmussen Reports

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/august_2009/without_public_option_enthusiasm_for_health_care_reform_especially_among_democrats_collapses

I have my own opinions, like everyone else, but I work to find information that is non-biased and factual. If you don't like these sources, let me know and I can post more.

Thank you for the links you provided. Looking at them, I was impressed by the variance in stats, and wondered how many people were in the surveys polled........what educational level of achievement they had, if illness had financial impact upon them or their friends and family, and what experts they had heard speak about health care reform.

Often people's responses reflect lack of information, and repeat those views of people they respect. I really don't put much credibility in polls, due to lack of information about those whose opinions are given. Too often, the opinions given are those of the pollsters!

[MaritesaRN]

Having worked in a country which has socialised medicine I can certainly see the pit falls and the benefits. What I dont understand is the fear behind having socialised medicine In my opinion socialised medicine has more positive benefits than negative benefits.

The first and the most obvious concern is the cost to the patient and their family, we all know how devestating an illness can be for pts and their family many times I have witnessed the despair when a diagnoses meant further treatment which insurances question and in some cases wont cover. I have seen pts needing costly drugs to keep them alive and being unable to afford them, causing repeated admissions to repair the damage so called none compliance has caused. The first question in none compliance is were the pts actually refusing to take their medication or was it simply they could not afford to buy their medication because they dont have enough money and other bills need to be paid first? If the real reason is the cost then surely it would be more simple of we provided these medications at a more effective price or that all medications cost $5 no matter what they had? Outrageous I hear you shout but the cost of the repeated admission is far more costly than by helping prevent a repeat admission, by providing medicine they can afford.

There are so many misnomers out there and fear due to lack of research , and not surprisingly enough a fear that is not well founded.

How about blood tests could these not be done in the doctors office before the pt leaves for home and forgets to go and have a blood draw, or simply cannot get to the lab to have them drawn. I have personnally waited in doctors office hours (and paid for the priviledge) then been sent to the lab, miles away to sit and wait for blood work to be done. Why could the doctors not employ somebody to be at the office to draw blood on pts?

We should be looking at improving preventative medicine rather than patch it up and see.

Many times I have seen pts discharged with a new diagnoses of diabetes, no follow up at home can be organised because in my city nothing exists to assist these people. There should be a diabetic home nurse who monitors these pts in their own home-rationale, this would again help prevent admissions for diabetic complications, and none compliance.

So you wonder what has this got to do with socialised medicine. Well, in the UK if you have certain illnesses for example

• Children
  
• Over 60 for women and over 65 for men
  
• Diabetes
  
• Asthma
  
• Thyroid problems, etc...
  

then you get all your medicines for free.

There are in place specialised RN's who focus is on preventative care in the community. There are telephone help lines which anybody can utilise for free.

Maternity care is free a midwife will be assigned to you for the duration of your pregnancy and upto 6 weeks later. The cost of the birth-nothing no matter how you deliver.

I have been asked what kind of care do you recieve in a socilaised medicine country and I ask them, I am a product of socialised medicine you tell me how my care differs from nurses who have paid outrageous amounts of money to train as a nurse?

Of course even in the UK you can have private care if you chose to pay, this is an advantage if you need hip replacements, knee replacements, eye surgeries-other wise you may have to wait. There are initiatives in place to reduce waiting times for surgeries in the NHS and I hear that dr's can now book surgeries from their office at hospitals all over the UK which helps reduce waiting times, plus hospitals get fined if they dont meet their quota.

I agree MRI's and CT's are not as freely available, but again iinitiatives are in place to improve the waiting times.

Emergency care no different all patients will recieve emergency care.

Poor conditions yes there are poor hospitals and there are excellent hospitals, no different to Phoenix AZ.

Questions??

:yeah:Thank you for the eye opener...who else can talk about socialised medicine w/ a credibility such as someone who have worked there ..... and thank you for sharing and shedding some truth and light to a lot of misundertood socialism system. Some people are scared w/ the health reform changes. for me I will embrace this change because our current system is so lopsided and too profit centered , rather than promoting good health to all who needs it, specially the children--- they should get the care and preventive treatments they should have .......all must have access to health care. Yes, like any system there is ample room to improve,and the waiting time will be studied to decrease unusual delay. I am a health coordinator in private and government health business , and the coordinator w/ it's supporting facility and environ can facilitate the kind of care needed....just imagine an ER triage.........it works pretty much the same way. We need other entities and facilities in place supporting the system. :)

[elkpark]

I don't think you're stupid at all! ...

... First, the general welfare clause is one of the most misunderstood and abused clauses in the Constitution. So please don't feel bad. You are not alone in your uneducated misinterpretation.

Ummm, yeah, right, you don't think I'm stupid ...

Do you actually have any idea how insulting, condescending and patronizing you sound toward anyone who sees things differently than you do? Do you really believe that you're the only person (well, you and the people who agree with you) who really understands how the world works, and what's "true" and isn't? The only person on this board who has read and considered the founding documents of the US? Spare me ...

[dlatimer]

I agree that we must write our congresspersons. It seems to me, that this hunger for increased profits (also known as greed/avarice) has naturally extended from health provider boardrooms to floor supervisors. It will soon (if not already) affect our ability to care for people in a manner that allows us to have a conscious. Below is an article regarding a once health insurance executive.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/opinion/27kristof.html?th&emc=th