Get off the Pedestal with the whole BSN vs ADN thing. A fact this is overlooked is that ADN does the same job as BSN and passes the NCLEX. Everyone then cried ADN is uneducated blah blah. WHY dont we look at the 4 year universities instead? Why doesnt the BSN itself advance? Because taking an extra gym glass doesnt deserve it. Look at all the worthless pre reqs that you BSN's are taking over the ADN. It isnt making you a better nurse its all about the money the school systems are a business. We need to change the education system. SWAP out that spanish you are going to forget the second after the test and take some critical thinking. Be gone with that Open elective to take baking class and replace it with PSYCH. The problem is the ADN is a efficient degree with time/pre-reqs and the BSN is created to give the "big man" money. Sorry if you wasted 100k in debt.
why are hospitals going magnet? because the universities are lobbiest to the hospitals. Universites need there money and they dont like ADNs getting the jobs BSNs are getting for a fraction of the cost. Universities have paid, persuaded, and convinced hospitals to go magnet and it is not because 4 year nurses are better.
IF universities ever decide to stop the worthless pre reqs and uni requirements then maybe one day a BSN nurse would have a true advantage.
MOM To 4 - I completely agree with you, well said! I do want to add a few things to this discussion. I'm concerned that people are too stuck on the letters. LET IT GO. RN is the only set of letters that matters right now. That being said, the different programs were created for reasons, and now it's time to consolidate. There is nothing wrong with anyone in the field right now who has their RN to be an RN. But, going forward, things need to change. Why? Because nurses are being popped out like pills in a LTC Med cart... I mean for real, all over the place. POP. pop. PoP. pOp. Nurse nurse nurse nurse nurse nurse. It's time to realign ourselves. We *CANNOT* leave our fellows behind, however. We have to allow those who are experience to continue to be experienced, no matter how they obtained their nursing IN THE PAST. Change is about moving forward. From here on out, we have to go FORWARD. Stop going back!! My old boss is an ADN. So what? She was great and she works as a consultant AND SHE DESERVES IT!! :-) My new boss is a BSN. He's great. He makes good money and? HE DESERVES IT. I'm a DIPLOMA RN with a degree in something non-nursing. I'm great. Guess what, I DESERVE IT. I am in a BSN program. Not because I want to outshine the ADN or Diploma- it's because I want to learn more. That is it!
All of this being said, compared to other professions, we have to change if we want to stay up. A 2 year degree is a vocational degree. It's a practical degree - An associate of a professional. I'm not putting any ADN's down, I'm saying that is what an Associates Degree is designed for. That's why it's an ASSOCIATES. Can't change that, it is what it is... Bachelor's degree is an entry-level BACHELOR - one who is ready to run, wet behind the ears but full of base theory. A starting professional. That's why it's a BACHELOR's degree. Masters- You've mastered your subject. I could keep going. So, why is the associate degree- the vocational school prepared degree, not for a LPN? The bachelor, the professional, an RN? Makes sense to me. Coming from someone who is a diploma RN, you have to know that I'm not about being better or worse than anyone who IS ALREADY A NURSE. I think we need to stop going back and start going forward. Sorry about the long winded message, I hope the idea gets through.
Oh Geez. Here we go again. A college education is fluffy and extraneous.
It is. I can't believe anyone who went to college would disagree that they took fluffy and extraneous courses. Like I needed fine arts to be a paralegal, lawyer, accountant, doctor? Please argue that I needed it so that I could "talk up" with similarly educated people, so I can show you a whole butt ton of people who seem to be doing just fine without it.
When you obtain a baccalaureate degree in whatever you study it's about balance and being well rounded.....that's what you call fluff....I actually enjoyed my classes that were off my major....life isn't one sided and neither should education....
It is. I can't believe anyone who went to college would disagree that they took fluffy and extraneous courses. Like I needed fine arts to be a paralegal, lawyer, accountant, doctor? Please argue that I needed it so that I could "talk up" with similarly educated people, so I can show you a whole butt ton of people who seem to be doing just fine without it.
^I can disagree...learning and knowing a foreign language allows me to communicate with individuals with various backgrounds, so does history, including art history, allows for examination of cultural backgrounds; Philosophy allowed for the ear of learning rationales and critical thinking. English and Public Speaking allowed me to learn ways to communicate. Abnormal Psych prepared me for Mental Health nursing, and assess how and why my peers and clients utilize certain behaviors....EACH of those "Arts" and "Sciences" courses are the BASE of what you are going to get, the ability up understand the WHY, and that KNOWLEDGE is power.
I respect the route of ANY education, BTW...my degree is far from "fluff," thank you, and so do most ADN programs as well have said "fluff;"; you still need those courses PRIOR to entering the nursing program or taken concurrently, so each course is REQUIRED. And I started at an ADN program, so the same prerequisites were required, while the ADN program required 200- level courses in about 4 subjects, the BSN covered more 200-level courses in all subjects, and each pathway was beneficial. When I did not succeed the first time due to test anxiety, they welcomed me back, however, I would've ended up doing 4 years and coming out of school with an Associates; for me, it made more sense to me, to get my Bachelors. I had to get my LPN first, which I did; when I returned to school I did two years to get my BSN.
So to assume that college is "fluff" is missing the point and reeks of ignorance...If one didn't take ANYTHING away from their Bachelors education, that is relative to that person...But for ME, and the nurses I work with, we see the INVESTMENT we made, and utilize each part of it. And there is NOTHING wrong with that.
Nursing is a profession that has CONSTANT education, regardless of which path. Our scope is changing as far as more complex and sicker patients are in our hospital and our community. It behooves one to be receptive to that education to be able to take on our patients, to care for them, provide resource, educate, and empower them. If one wants to continue to invest academically and professionally in their education, by all means they can do so, it's beneficial for the nurse and the community as a whole.
^I can disagree...learning and knowing a foreign language allows me to communicate with individuals with various backgrounds, so does history, including art history, allows for examination of cultural backgrounds; Philosophy allowed for the ear of learning rationales and critical thinking. English and Public Speaking allowed me to learn ways to communicate. Abnormal Psych prepared me for Mental Health nursing, and assess how and why my peers and clients utilize certain behaviors....EACH of those "Arts" and "Sciences" courses are the BASE of what you are going to get, the ability up understand the WHY, and that KNOWLEDGE is power.
I respect the route of ANY education, BTW...my degree is far from "fluff," thank you, and so do most ADN programs as well have said "fluff;"; you still need those courses PRIOR to entering the nursing program or taken concurrently, so each course is REQUIRED. And I started at an ADN program, so the same prerequisites were required, while the ADN program required 200- level courses in about 4 subjects, the BSN covered more 200-level courses in all subjects, and each pathway was beneficial. When I did not succeed the first time due to test anxiety, they welcomed me back, however, I would've ended up doing 4 years and coming out of school with an Associates; for me, it made more sense to me, to get my Bachelors. I had to get my LPN first, which I did; when I returned to school I did two years to get my BSN.
So to assume that college is "fluff" is missing the point and reeks of ignorance...If one didn't take ANYTHING away from their Bachelors education, that is relative to that person...But for ME, and the nurses I work with, we see the INVESTMENT we made, and utilize each part of it. And there is NOTHING wrong with that.
Nursing is a profession that has CONSTANT education, regardless of which path. Our scope is changing as far as more complex and sicker patients are in our hospital and our community. It behooves one to be receptive to that education to be able to take on our patients, to care for them, provide resource, educate, and empower them. If one wants to continue to invest academically and professionally in their education, by all means they can do so, it's beneficial for the nurse and the community as a whole.
So to assume that college is "fluff" is missing the point and reeks of ignorance...
Yes, because that's exactly what I said, that "college is fluff." Except it wasn't. And I have an associates, bachelor's and a doctorate degree. And there was plenty o fluff. It's so funny how we all "need" these classes that weren't "needed" 20 years ago! But no, no unnecessary classes in there at all.
Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
While I agree that the future of nursing entry should be a BSN, to remain competitive. I do not agree that the ADN is an inferior education...in most cases. The economy has produced inferior for profit schools (I know your for profit school is excellent) that are all about the money and could care less about the education....in my honest opinion have single handedly dumbed down the nursing curriculum and requirements....all for the mighty dollar.
My college ADN program......from a long time ago.....was BRUTAL. I went to school from sun up to sun down. I had micro, biochem, pharmacology, ethics and legalities (all separate classes). Today......They have dropped the ADN program all together. It is now....the Accelerated BSN program...... class per class. This is my personal experience.
I have a BSN. But it didn't make me a better nurse.....per se. I tire of this argument/debate time and time again for the las t 34 years....over and over again...it drive me NUTS!!!!!!!!! This is why I should just stay out of the conversation.....
I don't know why we as a profession must constantly bicker and brow beat each other with this nonsense. If the BSN edcuation is so superior then we as nurses should do the right thing and stop the ADN and diploma point of entry education (even though we all take the same exam) and protect the patients. Obviously it can't be that detrimental for there are diploma RN schools still open and yes they get jobs (I know of one in Indiana) ADN's graduate and pass boards every day.
If the profession as a whole decides to leave it alone then we need to be respectful of one another and appreciate each other for who we are and what we bring to the profession....and stop with the my education is better than yours.....
Time to step away from the keyboard.....I just can't stay objective.
Lets just treat each other as we would wish to be treated.
I agree that the direction our education system, in general, is headed is deplorable. The argument about for-profit schools is another debate in entirety, and one that involves all of us.
As for the BSN-entry, I think that people are fixated on looking at the past when arguing this issue. For me, it's a debate about future not the past.
Medicine and nursing are changing with more drugs, more complexity, and shorter inpatient stays, demanding more of nurses to practice at the full extent of nursing scope. This includes nurses at the bedside but extends to nurses in educator, research, outpatient, home, and community roles.
Specializes in critical care, ER,ICU, CVSURG, CCU.
All right i have to fess up, as a diploma nurse for 41yrs, a super nurse out of the gate that arrogantly thought my first job at city of memphis hosp. ccu (now THE MED) i only spent like a week in orrientation, where the univ. Tenn bsn graduates, spent 6-8weeks etcetcetc, always been promoted head nurse, nurse clinician, director of er, director of nurses etcetcetc.....i felt superior to the bsn, out of the box, of course i had 3.5yrs of college as biology mjr, prior to nursing school, and picked up an assoc.applied science a few years back in resp. therapy... so accademics challenged i felt not :-) but if i am truly as intellegent as i propose to be, and my assessment and critical thinking skills are sharp, i would have to be a fool to think less education is adequate :-):-):-)
At almost 64yr. Age i am connecting the dots, working a RN to BSN PROGRAM, that i should be through with in 6-9mos.
i have an itch to complete an MSN- NP also. It isnt for a job, it isnt for money. i already am a director of nurses, it is for the professional challenge, continuation of being the best nurse I can be, and when i do end my nursing career like in 20more years :-):-):-):-), i will end it in prosessional standing of the times. Eating a little crow and humble pie in this case does not taste so bad.
All right i have to fess up, as a diploma nurse for 41yrs, a super nurse out of the gate that arrogantly thought my first job at city of memphis hosp. ccu (now THE MED) i only spent like a week in orrientation, where the univ. Tenn bsn graduates, spent 6-8weeks etcetcetc, always been promoted head nurse, nurse clinician, director of er, director of nurses etcetcetc.....i felt superior to the bsn, out of the box, of course i had 3.5yrs of college as biology mjr, prior to nursing school, and picked up an assoc.applied science a few years back in resp. therapy... so accademics challenged i felt not :-) but if i am truly as intellegent as i propose to be, and my assessment and critical thinking skills are sharp, i would have to be a fool to think less education is adequate :-):-):-)
At almost 64yr. Age i am connecting the dots, working a RN to BSN PROGRAM, that i should be through with in 6-9mos.
i have an itch to complete an MSN- NP also. It isnt for a job, it isnt for money. i already am a director of nurses, it is for the professional challenge, continuation of being the best nurse I can be, and when i do end my nursing career like in 20more years :-):-):-):-), i will end it in prosessional standing of the times. Eating a little crow and humble pie in this case does not taste so bad.
I think you are a great example to any nurse regardless of education level.
gaonsi
58 Posts
Boom! Agreed and well articulated.