Should a nursing instructor tell a student they are not nursing material.

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A nursing instructor told one of my classmates that she is not nursing material. I think that she was wrong. She based it on my classmates appearance Im sure, she about 450lbs and slow moving. Her spirit is sweet but the instructor, I feel, is wrong. What do you guys think? If academically she's on it how can she judge her.

Yes, but there is a right way and wrong way to do that. Calling a student out in the middle of class with that type of comment is the WRONG way. Very unprofessional and speaks poorly for the instructor.

Was it done in front of everyone? Nowhere does the OP state that the instructor embarrassed the student in the manner you've described.

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Specializes in OB, MS, Education, Hospice.
I do not agree with what was said and any of you who justify this behavior as ok should not be nurses! Now how does that make you feel? I hope it has cause you to think. Many years ago White doctors and nurses told others who wanted to be nurses they are not suited for the position it is called weeding out now days. That teacher was wrong and a disgrace to the nursing profession maybe some of you need to go back to the nursing motto because it appears to be forgotten. What next you are not going to treat a patient because they have a disease. Gees Is this what the Nursing profession has come to. How sad!

WE DO NOT KNOW WHY SOMETHING WAS SAID--OR EVEN WHAT WAS SAID TO THIS STUDENT. It is all speculation by the OP. I am not going to bring race into this either. Students must meet standards. My job is to help students meet those outcomes, and I work very hard to do so. You know nothing about how hard I work--or how committed I am to student success.

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Specializes in OB, MS, Education, Hospice.
Thank you for making my point.

The OP never said that the student WAS NOT performing to standards. One of my previous posts said the exact same thing that you just did.

I'm glad we are on the same page as far as not being there to win a popularity contest. We are all adults! I am there for an education...nothing more. I gave up trying to stroke instructor's ego about 20 years ago when I finished high school.

There is a HUGE difference between telling a student, "You know Jane, I'm afraid that you really haven't been able to meet the standards x,y and z...in order to be a nurse, these are things that you have to be able to do or I cannot send you on to the next semeser."

What's wrong with that? Nothing...absolutely nothing. You are not being person, sarcastic, belittling, you are addressing the facts...but "You are just not nursing material"...is a blanket opinon. Educated professionals give reasons and should be able to articulate their point much better than what the OP's instructor did.

Well said--and I agree.

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Specializes in OB, MS, Education, Hospice.
ElliShay,

I couldn't agree with you more. As a new instructor there are students that I like more than others. They just seem to "get it" and are just all around more pleasant and agreeable however; I force myself to put my personal feelings aside and just evaluate them on their clinical competence. Same goes for the ones I can't stand on a personal level.

And then their are the ones that seem to have thinly veiled contempt for you and are bordering on inappropriate yet haven't exactly "done" anything yet. It is more like an attitude or a look that they give you, simply because they resent your authority.

As an instructor I do not take joy in telling people they are performing poorly. I have been struggling with this all weekend. I have to write up a student for poor clinical performance and it is just killing me. On a personal level I hate to do it, he is a really nice guy, but ethically I have to. What do you do about a student who shows up to post-conference without knowing what their patients primary dx was after caring for them all day? Should I tell him he is not nursing material? I feel terrible because I may have to fail this person but I would feel even worse if I let him slip through. I am talking about gross incompetence. He seems very eager to do tasks but when you ask him why he cannot give you the rationale for why he is doing it. He cannot make the mental connection between esrd and fluid retention. He doesn't have a grasp of basic medical terminology. He charts things that are blatantly wrong. He almost gave insulin to the wrong patient and would have if I weren't there. He neglects to metion things like amputations in his assessment. He adds things to his assessment that aren't there like wound vacs. I could go on and on. Am I supposed to not say anything because he passes all his tests? It is not like I haven't tried to tell him in the past, he just doesn't seem to get it.

meluhn--

I feel for you. I have been in that position... but look at it this way-- you are NOT failing him-- HE has failed to meet the objectives. We have a huge ethical responsibility--and are often judged fairly harshly for it (in this thread, for instance...). It has taken me years--and I think I am maybe getting better at it--but it is still a difficult thing. Sounds pretty obvious in your example though. Is he close to graduation? Yikes... I would write everything up, grade it completely objectively--have a faculty member--or your director read it over and do what you have to do. Good luck--and try not to lose any sleep over it.

elli

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Specializes in NICU, Post-partum.
In what state? Per the ADA:

The ADA regulations state that

temporary, non-chronic impairments of short duration, with little or no long term or

permanent impact, are usually not disabilities. Such impairments may include, but are

not limited to, broken limbs, sprained joints [and] concussions....

Similarly, except

in rare circumstances, obesity is not considered a disabling impairment.14

The EEOC has expounded on how obesity is to be covered under the ADA. In its

ADA compliance manual, the EEOC states that

being overweight, in and of itself, generally is not an impairment. On the other hand,

severe obesity, which has been defined as body weight more than 100% over the norm

is clearly an impairment. In addition, a person with obesity may have an underlying

or resultant physiological disorder, such as hypertension or a thyroid disorder. A

physiological disorder is an impairment.15

So it is not the obesity that is a disability, but the underlying physiological disorder...if one exists.

The ADA is used when one is grossly morbidly obese. However, understand that one can qualify for disability payments for this "severe life limiting disability", but having a disability doesn't mean an employer HAS to hire you. If a fireman was short and weighed over the maximum, they can fire him. If a model weighs over 'severe underweight' (:lol2:) and she can be fired. There are certain types of employment that are excluded for considering certain 'disabilities' because 'reasonable' accommodation cannot be made.

In 2006, the EEOC awarded Summary Judgement to Watkins (trucking firm) who terminated an employee after a leave of absence due to injury. When the company doc was certifying whether or not this person had recovered, he identified that this person had limited range of motion and was out of breath after just a few steps. His 400 lbs body weight was cited as the cause. Without a physiological underlying cause, the plaintiff lost.

Becareful what you pass on as accurate information. Unless you are grossly, morbidly obese witha physiological cause you are NOT disabled per the ADA and by the time you are, you are legally excluded from jobs that need you to be fit or where that level of obesity prevents you from doing the requirements of the job.

....and in this case, I think 450 lbs qualifies as morbidly obese (granted, we are not entire sure if the weight of the OP's classmate is accurate...but as adults, I think we can all appreciate we are simply drawing a point).

The EEOC and the ADA must draw lines at simple obesity, or else you would have ever person who is 30 lbs overweight screaming that they are being discriminated against.

I agree with that philosopy.

I was referring more toward the fact that obesity is being seen differently than it had in year's past.

In 2004, medicare removed all language that were previously, essentially barring from obese patients from getting medical treatment to treat the obesity itself, whether it was caused by overeating or some other "traditional" disease.

These patients can now get care in order to lose weight such as stomach banding, gastro-bypass, and regular insurance companies are paying for these costs as well...even plastic surgery that follows, as massive folds of skin cause a patient to be at risk for skin impairment, infection....you know where it eventually goes.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with airlines, stating that if someone's girth (not lbs, but girth) is over so-many inches, it WILL impair their ability to safetly evacuate a plane...I am in 100% agreement with you that with some jobs, accomdations cannot be made.

My entire point was that regardless of someone's weight, a nurse, if she can perform the job, then she can perform the job. If she cannot...then she can't.

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Hence, we are in general agreement.

Please understand that my mother shot up over 200lbs after surgery for an acoustic neuroma that left her 30 yo face paralyzed...it really affect her perception of herself. Anyway, she was a successful nurse for 35 yrs. My sis started nursing...technically obese...150 lbs for 5'.5". My son's ex-mother-in-law was a 400+ lb woman. She was hardly able to move around her house. Currently, my mother is still over 200 lbs, but at 73 is beginning to have trouble breathing as she carries around that extra weight.

I feel for all the heavy people. My concern for this particular woman was her ability do be able to do the job carrying around that kind of weight. :o To simply look at her and tell her to lose weight is minimizing it. She has to lose at least "2 people". I believe when she is closer to 200 she will be healthier and will be able to perform all the duties needed of her.

I would never minimize how the lady (or man for that matter) stuggles with her weight. I had a 6 yr weight battle myself. I yo-yo'd. In the end, I now maintain ~115. I even laugh inside when people look at my "skinny" kids and remark, "well, what would you expect! Look at YOU!"...ahhh, if they only knew!

Being small can be tough in another way. My DD is a combat medic. Her full "battle rattle" and gear weighs 70+lbs. She weighs less than 100. Her male counterparts would tease her about how slow she would move on long marches in full gear. They stopped when she pointed out that they would have trouble if THEY were carrying 140 lbs (for say a 200 lb male)!

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Specializes in Case mgmt., rehab, (CRRN), LTC & psych.

Some students truly are not nursing material, so the truth needs to be told. Likewise, some instructors clearly are not nursing material. Numerous instructors are not even good teaching material!

Incompetence travels in all directions. It goes both ways.

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Specializes in NICU, Post-partum.
Some students truly are not nursing material, so the truth needs to be told. Likewise, some instructors clearly are not nursing material. Numerous instructors are not even good teaching material!

Incompetence travels in all directions. It goes both ways.

This view...I can truly appreciate :up::up:

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Specializes in CCU, SICU, CVSICU, Precepting & Teaching.
ellishay,

i couldn't agree with you more. as a new instructor there are students that i like more than others. they just seem to "get it" and are just all around more pleasant and agreeable however; i force myself to put my personal feelings aside and just evaluate them on their clinical competence. same goes for the ones i can't stand on a personal level.

and then their are the ones that seem to have thinly veiled contempt for you and are bordering on inappropriate yet haven't exactly "done" anything yet. it is more like an attitude or a look that they give you, simply because they resent your authority.

as an instructor i do not take joy in telling people they are performing poorly. i have been struggling with this all weekend. i have to write up a student for poor clinical performance and it is just killing me. on a personal level i hate to do it, he is a really nice guy, but ethically i have to. what do you do about a student who shows up to post-conference without knowing what their patients primary dx was after caring for them all day? should i tell him he is not nursing material? i feel terrible because i may have to fail this person but i would feel even worse if i let him slip through. i am talking about gross incompetence. he seems very eager to do tasks but when you ask him why he cannot give you the rationale for why he is doing it. he cannot make the mental connection between esrd and fluid retention. he doesn't have a grasp of basic medical terminology. he charts things that are blatantly wrong. he almost gave insulin to the wrong patient and would have if i weren't there. he neglects to metion things like amputations in his assessment. he adds things to his assessment that aren't there like wound vacs. i could go on and on. am i supposed to not say anything because he passes all his tests? it is not like i haven't tried to tell him in the past, he just doesn't seem to get it.

if the nursing instructor doesn't tell the student that they're just not getting it, the preceptor will have to down the road. and if the preceptor doesn't, the patients will suffer. as a preceptor, i understand exactly what you're saying! i have orientees i enjoy enormously, and then there are the orientees who have thinly veiled contempt (what a perfect way to phrase it!) and resent your authority. i try to be fair to all of them, and when i give feedback base it on facts. but there are some orientees like the student you describe who just don't get it. after you've tried and tried to help them and they're still not getting it, there comes a point at which you have to tell them they're not icu material at this point and ease them out of their job. this is extremely difficult to do especially when you know they've always dreamed of being a nurse, they've just spent years in school and they have educational loans to pay back.

i would think it would be a great kindness to point out their shortcomings (as privately and kindly as possible) before they've spent all the time and money on nursing education. and after you've given them factual feedback, attempted remediation and tried everything you know of to help them succeed, sometimes you have to flunk them.

we don't know that the nursing instructor in the original post didn't try remediation and everything else she could think of before telling the nursing student she just wasn't nursing material. we don't even know that she used those terms. all we know is what the op told us her classmate told her. and we all know that the classmate may have left some things out or embellished others.

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The student was not seeking occupational advice, so no, the teacher has no business sharing her feelings/impressions in that manner.

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.....

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you maybe right but I was just using race as an example to make my point. I feel that it should not matter. The young lady passed the requirements to be in nursing school(i.e. drug test, physical exam, and background check) so there should not be a problem that teacher was dead wrong.

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