Should a nursing instructor tell a student they are not nursing material.

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A nursing instructor told one of my classmates that she is not nursing material. I think that she was wrong. She based it on my classmates appearance Im sure, she about 450lbs and slow moving. Her spirit is sweet but the instructor, I feel, is wrong. What do you guys think? If academically she's on it how can she judge her.

i agree, i think this is very wrong. i too went to a nursing school where teachers had their pets and were partial to certain people. all the instructors were female and they tended to dote on their favorites. if you werent someone that they were partial to, you had a more difficult time in class and also in clinicals. it seemed so unfair because you could be the smartest person in the whole class but you were failed for minute details during practicums or you were grilled more during clinicals abour med administration, etc. whereas the pet got away with failing grades, etc. just remember you or someone you know are not the only person to experience bias in nursing school

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Specializes in NICU, Post-partum.
if it isn't the point you were addressing, you've just moved the goalpost.

i added emphasis to the key word. what do you think it means to evaluate? .

evaluate means to critique, to examine, to observe.

an instructor's job is to evaluate whether or not she was able to give a patient a bath according to her training, whether or not when she inserted a foley, did she observe aseptic technique, does she property take vital signs...does she know the significance of abnormal values to the patient's condition, etc.

it does not include, "gee, i don't think you are cut out to be a nurse."

190% uncalled for.

190% unprofessional.

190% not in their job description.

if the student cannot do what is expected of her, then why doesn't the clinical instructor just fail her? could it mean in their school (as mine) that a clinical instructor has to have a specific, concrete reason to do so and she can't find one other than the fact she doesn't think she should be cut out to be one?

there are lines in education that should not be crossed...and this my dear, is one of them.

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Specializes in NICU, Post-partum.

I think the instructor has the the obligation to be honest in their evaluation of the student regardless of the particular student's disability or disease.

How would you like it if you had a port-wine birth mark on your face and an instructor said, "You know, you should really reconsider your career choice to work in Peds...you might scare the children."

But for some reason, in this case it's ok?

Heck no it's not, and I can't believe as a supposedly educated person you are actually sitting here believing that it is. You have a RIGHT to get an education if you meet the criteria at a PUBLIC institution of learning, but you don't have the right to work any job you want...an employer has the right to pick and choose within certain limits.

You are comparing oranges and cranberries.

The "D" in ADA stands for "Disabilities", not "Disease", and under that act only reasonable accommodations are to be made. You can't accomodate for any and all disabilities of all severity and still produce competent nurses. There are minimum physical standards that must be adhered to, and most schools are up front with them.

However, this discussion about the student's weight is a complete derailment to the issue at hand.

Uh, Yup..fully aware of what it means dear. Reasonable accomodations probably includes an instructor not taking the opportunity to belittle a student when their obvious "disability" is getting in the way. So what if she needs a few extra minutes...as long as she isn't running up a code blue, then there is no problem.

Sounds like you have a major issue with folks that are overweight working in nursing...it doesn't mean that they won't make good nurses. You assume away too much.

If the student didn't meet the minimum standards, then she wouldn't have been there...so that blows your argument there.

The student's weight is a protected class...which is something that you are conveniently forgetting. :bugeyes:

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Be careful how you say things, you could offend. A learning disability is not necessarily a bad thing or mean that you can not get good grades. I have a documented learning disability and I have an over all GPA of 3.58 and a nursing GPA of 3.63. Having a leaning disability does not make a person any less intelligent than some one without.

... I agree- a learning disability isn't a bad thing, but that doesn't mean one necessarily wants to be told they must *have* one because they aren't doing as well as they'd like at something...

Much like pregnancy is hardly a bad thing- but that doesn't mean the gal carrying around an extra 30lbs wants to be told she must be pregnant since the jeans aren't quite so comfy anymore.... ;)

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Specializes in OB, MS, Education, Hospice.
Nope...not their job. It's the job of the NCLEX and a future employer.

If the student is performing to standards in both clinical and classroom as fairly as other students, and the student makes the grade, then the instructor should keep personal opinions to themselves.

Every instructor is going to have a different opinion about different students. There are students at my school that some instructors love and those same students are clearly disliked by others.

None of us go to school for a popularity contest. We go for an education.

I am an educator--and I must tell you--it IS MY JOB. The ONLY reason I would ever tell a student that he or she wasn't cut out for nursing is if that student fails to perform to the standards, and only if attempts at remediation have failed. How do you know this is the "personal opinion" of the instructor? Perhaps it is a well-founded judgement objectively based upon failure to meet standards? I don't teach in an effort to win a popularity contest either--I facilitate learning. My job is to assist students in meeting standards in order to achieve the ultimate goal of patient safety--and to be honest with students who cannot meet the standard necessary for safe and competent practice.

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I do not agree with what was said and any of you who justify this behavior as ok should not be nurses! Now how does that make you feel? I hope it has cause you to think. Many years ago White doctors and nurses told others who wanted to be nurses they are not suited for the position it is called weeding out now days. That teacher was wrong and a disgrace to the nursing profession maybe some of you need to go back to the nursing motto because it appears to be forgotten. What next you are not going to treat a patient because they have a disease. Gees Is this what the Nursing profession has come to. How sad!

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Specializes in NICU, Post-partum.
i am an educator--and i must tell you--it is my job. the only reason i would ever tell a student that he or she wasn't cut out for nursing is if that student fails to perform to the standards, and only if attempts at remediation have failed. how do you know this is the "personal opinion" of the instructor? perhaps it is a well-founded judgement objectively based upon failure to meet standards? i don't teach in an effort to win a popularity contest either--i facilitate learning. my job is to assist students in meeting standards in order to achieve the ultimate goal of patient safety--and to be honest with students who cannot meet the standard necessary for safe and competent practice.

thank you for making my point.

the op never said that the student was not performing to standards. one of my previous posts said the exact same thing that you just did.

i'm glad we are on the same page as far as not being there to win a popularity contest. we are all adults! i am there for an education...nothing more. i gave up trying to stroke instructor's ego about 20 years ago when i finished high school.

there is a huge difference between telling a student, "you know jane, i'm afraid that you really haven't been able to meet the standards x,y and z...in order to be a nurse, these are things that you have to be able to do or i cannot send you on to the next semeser."

what's wrong with that? nothing...absolutely nothing. you are not being person, sarcastic, belittling, you are addressing the facts...but "you are just not nursing material"...is a blanket opinon. educated professionals give reasons and should be able to articulate their point much better than what the op's instructor did.

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Specializes in acute rehab, med surg, LTC, peds, home c.

ElliShay,

I couldn't agree with you more. As a new instructor there are students that I like more than others. They just seem to "get it" and are just all around more pleasant and agreeable however; I force myself to put my personal feelings aside and just evaluate them on their clinical competence. Same goes for the ones I can't stand on a personal level.

And then their are the ones that seem to have thinly veiled contempt for you and are bordering on inappropriate yet haven't exactly "done" anything yet. It is more like an attitude or a look that they give you, simply because they resent your authority.

As an instructor I do not take joy in telling people they are performing poorly. I have been struggling with this all weekend. I have to write up a student for poor clinical performance and it is just killing me. On a personal level I hate to do it, he is a really nice guy, but ethically I have to. What do you do about a student who shows up to post-conference without knowing what their patients primary dx was after caring for them all day? Should I tell him he is not nursing material? I feel terrible because I may have to fail this person but I would feel even worse if I let him slip through. I am talking about gross incompetence. He seems very eager to do tasks but when you ask him why he cannot give you the rationale for why he is doing it. He cannot make the mental connection between esrd and fluid retention. He doesn't have a grasp of basic medical terminology. He charts things that are blatantly wrong. He almost gave insulin to the wrong patient and would have if I weren't there. He neglects to metion things like amputations in his assessment. He adds things to his assessment that aren't there like wound vacs. I could go on and on. Am I supposed to not say anything because he passes all his tests? It is not like I haven't tried to tell him in the past, he just doesn't seem to get it.

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The student's weight is a protected class...which is something that you are conveniently forgetting. :bugeyes:

In what state? Per the ADA:

The ADA regulations state that

temporary, non-chronic impairments of short duration, with little or no long term or

permanent impact, are usually not disabilities. Such impairments may include, but are

not limited to, broken limbs, sprained joints [and] concussions.... Similarly, except

in rare circumstances, obesity is not considered a disabling impairment.14

The EEOC has expounded on how obesity is to be covered under the ADA. In its

ADA compliance manual, the EEOC states that

being overweight, in and of itself, generally is not an impairment. On the other hand,

severe obesity, which has been defined as body weight more than 100% over the norm

is clearly an impairment. In addition, a person with obesity may have an underlying

or resultant physiological disorder, such as hypertension or a thyroid disorder. A

physiological disorder is an impairment.15

So it is not the obesity that is a disability, but the underlying physiological disorder...if one exists.

The ADA is used when one is grossly morbidly obese. However, understand that one can qualify for disability payments for this "severe life limiting disability", but having a disability doesn't mean an employer HAS to hire you. If a fireman was short and weighed over the maximum, they can fire him. If a model weighs over 'severe underweight' (:lol2:) and she can be fired. There are certain types of employment that are excluded for considering certain 'disabilities' because 'reasonable' accommodation cannot be made.

In 2006, the EEOC awarded Summary Judgement to Watkins (trucking firm) who terminated an employee after a leave of absence due to injury. When the company doc was certifying whether or not this person had recovered, he identified that this person had limited range of motion and was out of breath after just a few steps. His 400 lbs body weight was cited as the cause. Without a physiological underlying cause, the plaintiff lost.

Becareful what you pass on as accurate information. Unless you are grossly, morbidly obese witha physiological cause you are NOT disabled per the ADA and by the time you are, you are legally excluded from jobs that need you to be fit or where that level of obesity prevents you from doing the requirements of the job.

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I am an educator--and I must tell you--it IS MY JOB. The ONLY reason I would ever tell a student that he or she wasn't cut out for nursing is if that student fails to perform to the standards, and only if attempts at remediation have failed. How do you know this is the "personal opinion" of the instructor? Perhaps it is a well-founded judgement objectively based upon failure to meet standards? I don't teach in an effort to win a popularity contest either--I facilitate learning. My job is to assist students in meeting standards in order to achieve the ultimate goal of patient safety--and to be honest with students who cannot meet the standard necessary for safe and competent practice.

... Part of the instructors job is to make sure the information is getting across to the students. If there have been repeated attempts to make sure this is occurring and it is still not getting across- then yes- that would be a failure to meet the standards that would certainly fall with the student. However- if the student is failing to meet the standard- then the answer is to grade them accordingly- failing grades and failure to meet the standard are going to prevent them from entering the field. It's not the instructors job IMO to tell someone "you're not cut out for..." There are far more effective and less hostile methods of imparting the same information. This IMO is a case of "it's not what you say so much as how you say it".

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Specializes in Pediatrics, Geriatrics, LTC.

IMHO....the instructor could have been more tactful to say the least...if this student is indeed 450 pounds and has trouble getting around, which I'm sure she must, then I think once she gets into heavy clinical work, she will dis-qualify herself for not being able to physically do the job. Sometimes NS problems work themselves out with time.

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Specializes in Acute Mental Health.

I agee that it's how you word it. I will never think its ok for an instructor to tell a student they are not nursing material. That is ridiculous. What does that give the student to work on? How will that ever help anyone? Can you imagine an instructor putting that down in writing? Now, on the other hand, you have to write up a student for doing poorly in clinical as an instructor noted in an above post. I'm pretty sure the instructor would have to put reasons down on paper. I hope this instructor would not write "Is not nursing material." and hope that flies with anyone.

Anyone can think that someone is not nursing material, but you have to back up that statement (if you're so bold to make it) with specific examples. If an instructor tells someone they are not nursing material, they should have the guts to put those exact words down on paper for that student to take up the chain of command. See how far that statement will go.

There are many instructors that are not instructor material. I'm surely not going to be the one to tell them that! Not as long as that shiny ax is waiting to come down in the form of "Im not nursing material". Maybe they just need some remediation or some more experience.

I guess what I'm having a problem with is the fact that people can just tell that someone is not nursing material. An instructor can evaluate my performance, but shouldn't be able to tell me that I'm not cut from the same cloth as a nurse. There's something about the statement that presumes an omnipotent presence. Please, do evaluate me and use constructive thought in guiding me on my journey. Don't smash my dreams and aspriations because you feel the need to flat out just tell me I'm not nursing material. Another instructor will feel the exact opposite, many of us have seen that.

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