Should BSNs be paid more?

traumaliz · Aug 5, 2005

I know ADNs and BSNs both sit for the same NCLEX exam, both have approximately four years of education, and at best have negligible differences (over time) in their nursing skills. BSNs take courses than broaden their overall knowledge; however, ADNs have more clinical experience prior to entering the workforce. Should there be a differential for BSNs, or should the reward for obtaining a BSN lie in the ability to advance one's career?
I'm not trying to start an ADN vs BSN bashing, I'm just curious to see what you all think.

If we are talking about bedside nursing, my answer is no. I'm working right now with a nurse who finished her BSN, went right on to get her NP certification, and can't deal with 2 patients at a time in the ICU. If you want to give a differential to any one in bediside nursing, it should be the diploma grads, or the ADN's who come out after having 4 or 5 years of work experience as LPN's.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Aug 5, 2005

If we are talking about bedside nursing, my answer is no. I'm working right now with a nurse who finished her BSN, went right on to get her NP certification, and can't deal with 2 patients at a time in the ICU. If you want to give a differential to any one in bediside nursing, it should be the diploma grads, or the ADN's who come out after having 4 or 5 years of work experience as LPN's.

While I see your point, for every BSN who can't deal, I'll find you and ADN and a Diploma grad who can't deal as well.

reggiebinggelshai · Aug 5, 2005

i think you are right only if they will be using such degree in management. at bedside thay should be equally compensated

in my opinion, only if the nurse will be using the additional skills/knowledge they gained in getting that bsn. so for things like management, case management, qi, education, then yes, they probably should be getting more money. but not for bedside nurses.
i've had a few hospitals that i worked at gave those of us with a bsn a higher rate: 10 cents an hour. wow.
ok, maybe its easy for me to say because i was one who was getting the extra pay. but it seems like they did it so they could say "we reward our nurses who further their education," without really doing something meaningful.

brina · Aug 5, 2005

Equal pay for equal work.
So, should RN's get paid the same as LPN's when RN's are not hanging blood? I don't know how many RN's hang blood their entire 12 hr shift. A lot of LPN's start and hang IV's now, and do IV pushes. Of course they assess. So with this warped thinking that eduacation means absolutely nothing. I want to see how ADN nurses feel about equal pay for LPN's and RN's. Sounds like the same thing to me,being that they are all doing basically the same work.

kmrmom42 · Aug 5, 2005

An old and tired debate but one that still lives because of all of the inequities that we see every day.

All I can say is that every time I get frustrated that the LPN who works on the Mother/Baby Unit exclusively gets paid more than I do with my MSN (among other degrees and certifications) I just remember my mother's words.....

"And who ever promised you life was going to be fair???" :)

sbic56, BSN, RN · Aug 5, 2005

Equal pay for equal work.
So, should RN's get paid the same as LPN's when RN's are not hanging blood? I don't know how many RN's hang blood their entire 12 hr shift. A lot of LPN's start and hang IV's now, and do IV pushes. Of course they assess. So with this warped thinking that eduacation means absolutely nothing. I want to see how ADN nurses feel about equal pay for LPN's and RN's. Sounds like the same thing to me,being that they are all doing basically the same work.
Since I feel the same as this poster you responded to, I'll comment.
Actually, you made my point for me by making your own. No, RN's and LPN's should not be paid the same. LPN and RN are not the same. They sit for different boards and the LPN cannot assess and works under the licensure of the RN. There is a problem with ADN's and BSN's performing the exact same duties and having the same ultimate responsibilities. It's a major flaw in the system, but paying the BSN considerably more isn't going to work, as the majority of the staff nurse workforce are ADN's. Perhaps .50 to $1.00 would be fair for recognition of the extra initiative, but "equal work, equal pay" prevails for the most part, IMO.

jennifersrexie · Aug 5, 2005

Very well said!

I feel that the more education a person has, the more they will bring to patient care, period. Maybe it is statistical, maybe it is psychosocial, maybe it is simply the broader view one is offered by advanced education, those are all very important aspects of patient care!! If you don't understand this than you cannot possibly understand the idea that nurses just follow a doctors orders. Nurses are the net that patients rely on when their condition deteriorates, however I have seen situations where the nurse was completely oblivious because she was not exposed to certain subjects in her RN program.

The point is, the BSN nurse whether it is obvious or not in the daily tasks of the bedside RN -- (ideally) knows more about nursing. (I say "ideally" because it would be ridiculous for me to say that every BSN student retained more and recieved a better education than every ADN student.) He or she has a broader knowledge base with which to critically think!

Would you rather have a physician with more science based knowledge than OJT? (Or the other way around?) I want a physician with the highest gpa who can apply knowlege gained from studying advanced sciences! Not exactly the one who is the most relaxed and cavalier at the bedside. (Ignorance usually IS bliss.) Those tend to be the docs who don't recognize crucial details.

If I become critically ill, I hope to have a highly educated nurse watching over me. In reality though, with the shortage, it may even be an LPN! In that case, shouldn't the LPN recieve the same pay as the ADN, and the BSN? Those of you who think that the LPN, the ADN, and the BSN are "doing the same job" in this case are vastly mistaken.

What if we could train robots and monkeys to hook up IVs and pass meds? How about paying them the same too? I don't mean to sound cruel, but at what point will we realize that it is not all about passing meds, giving injections, and then bashing eachother for this or that. Great nurses should be current in the latest knowledge, professional, intelligent, dignified, and trustworthy. Then maybe we will be paid as such. Right now, many act like high school drama queens (and kings) whining, complaining, and stabbing eachother in the back. No wonder we aren't taken seriously! (I personally think that it is the bachelor and masters programs, where those finer qualities are further and more specifically developed; this is probably the source of the great divide.)

I mean no attack on LPNs or ADNs; I just feel that education is so extremely de-valued in our society that clear down to our children's elementary education we are failing. Most people won't go to college -- and many will live on (very content in many cases) completely oblivious to the magnificance of their world and the people in it with their diverse and beautiful cultures!

Education is an awakening!-- like giving sight to someone blind from birth!

If as a society we will strive to learn - just for knowlege's sake; and offer respect and an open mind to those who have knowlege to share. Not one of us is perfect. No single person knows everything, so we need to share our experiences... Then we will realize world peace.

Jennifer (Lifetime student.)

To those who say we should be "paid what we are worth"....
well then, how do we justify professional ball players making millions and us peanuts then? (just a random thought---NO ONE is paid what he is worth in the USA---we are either grossly under or over-paid, period)
Anyhow, I did digress. One more thing: wish we could quit comparing ADN/BSN programs...it varies too much by state and city. Where I went to school , our clinical hours were literally identical, just when we did them varied. The BSN nurses had community health, research and senior practicum, as well as statistics and a few other electives over us. Yes, they did have more educational hours. But ALL OF US were prepared to assume the role of RN/Charge nurse in Oklahoma.
The differences between ADN and BSN nurses cannot be discerned just by watching them work side by side, either. Or by "listening to them talk". I have heard people say then can tell a "BSN from an ADN" a mile away. Bull pockey. Anyone who says that, to me, is seeing things through some very shaded lenses--and it's usually a BSN or higher nurse making such claims.....anyhow.....
Truly, I do think we ought be paid commensurate our education AND background/experience. I think there OUGHT be an incentive, of sorts, to advance one's education. WHY THE HECK NOT? What is so wrong with paying people with more education better? Why is nursing so "hung up" here???? If someone chooses to gain a baccalaureate degree or higher, well then, PAY THEM FOR IT. Maybe more of us will advance our education and improve the overall educational status of our profession. Why should it be so different than making cert. differentials?
I say the time for education differentials is long overdue. Pay people well for their education and experience, and overall, you will have a MUCH stronger, better and competitive nursing workforce! It only makes sense.

sbic56, BSN, RN · Aug 5, 2005

An old and tired debate but one that still lives because of all of the inequities that we see every day.
All I can say is that every time I get frustrated that the LPN who works on the Mother/Baby Unit exclusively gets paid more than I do with my MSN (among other degrees and certifications) I just remember my mother's words.....
"And who ever promised you life was going to be fair???" :)

Now, that's interesting! Never heard of an LPN, regardless of position or experience, making more than anyone with masters degree, but I'm not doubting it's so, either.

OT, but I have always been amazed at how the LCPC(licensed clinical professional counseler) requires a masters degree, but unless in private practice, the compensation is comparable to that of an ADN. Then again, social work pays horribly overall, IMO.

jennifersrexie · Aug 5, 2005

I am very humbly asking these questions. They are not meant to be offensive just thoughts of a student.

Let's say that you earn your ADN and continue on at your current workplace (hypothetically of course) in the same position..

How would you feel about assuming a greater liability responsibility... while recieving the same pay as you had before you became a registered nurse? You are in fact "doing the same job," are you not? Do you consider the fact that with your advanced "formal" education you your knowledge base has been expanded? and refined your critical thinking skills?

Do you allow for the possibility that your high quality clinical skills and success as an LPN (increased pay and respect of your employers) has been enhanced by and is therefore the result of furthering your formal education and certifications?

Do you feel you would have been just as knowledgeable and capable a clinician if you had just accepted your LPN certification as the final step in your formal education?

Do you feel that an LPN whose practiced for say 5 years without your drive, someone who did only the barest of minimums to keep her certification educationally, should make the same or more than and ADN nurse because she has had more "clinical" experience?

Do you consider the possibility that increased experience at the bedside of an unmotivated nurse at any degree level can cause a stagnation and inferior performance? Would you still reward that clinician on the basis of experience rather than formal education?

jen

Wow, great posting...I am really impressed. Ok first off Roland...outstanding point with your intitial point. And Critterlove, I agree with you on many levels.
Ok now lets begin with the debate of more education more money because more experience means more money. Well when comming to nursing which is a unique career in it's self you cannot compare education to experience (IMO), it is like apples and oranges...Why you ask...well remember when you were a new grad??? How much did you know compared to a year from that time or now in your career??? I would bet that you would say your education gave you a foundation to grow on and learn more...or at least truelly learn it. So therefore, experience (for the most part) can make a more competant nurse, better educated one, or shall we say experienced educated, so yes they deserve more than someone with higher education. At least in this field because we learn in the field, meaning our working experience. So a nurse with 20yrs experience with a ADN degree should DEF. make more money than a new grad BSN or ADN. Because experience and clinical knowledge is what matters in our careers. I will tell you this, I am an LPN, almost done with my ADN, then I will go for PA and probally get my BSN degree somewhere in the mix of that. You know I make more money with only 5 yrs experience as an LPN than a new RN, it isn't travel and it isn't per diem or agency...straight forward job 40 hours a week. Now you ask how is that fair, well I will tell you, I strived in my career to better myself in every way possible, with clinical experience, various certificates for special training...but most importantly I proved my professionalism and my knowledge and my skills to my previous and current employeers...I do this all with in the scope of my practice...which I know inside and out. So that doesn't sound fair does it??? Well I think it is because I sought out and found that clinical knowledge which makes nurses so valueable and great clinicians. Now please note, by now means am I putting myself at the level of an ADN or BSN...I am just stating the facts. I am not at that level, will be soon...my career choices is based on one fact...I want to work in a Trauma center, hopefully as a PA, I would choose NP but PA's tend to be utilized more in ER/Trauma settings. It is not for pay, because I already make that....
I think careers should pay more only if they require that higher level, meaning a BSN...if it can be done with an ADN, then I say no...that is the encouragement for further education. Honestly, I don't think one degree or the other makes you a better or worse nurse. Being a good nurse and a good clinician comes from the inside and development of skills, hence education. There are good and bad at all levels of nursing from LPN's to MSN's. Education does not dictate that. Again stating my original statement pay should not be based on Education but rather experience.
Now regarding additional cert's or qualifications. If at entry level you are required to have a particular degree...such as BLS or ACLS or PALs for that current position...no I don't think you deserve more, you are just doing what you need to have your job...you are not going above and beyond to better your clinical skills and your knowledge. Now if you choose to become an expert in a particular field(in relationship to position) then yes you deserve an incentive for that...for instance I am not required to have anything but BLS, Well I am an ACLS and PALS instructor...again above the call of duty and that is considered when I am offered my pay.
Now in regards to being credentialed...the only nursing level that should be is MSN or NP, I say that because they practice at a level near PA's and MD's. I say this in regards to MD's because MSN/NP's require what about 8 years of education? I could be wrong on that, not sure...not something I am personally interested in. But still we are nurses not doctors with 16+years of education...don't standardize it, isn't it nice to be a class of our own?? We won't gain more respect with credentionaling, we gain respect by proving and showing the public our value in their healthcare...that is respect...no piece of paper can show respect or earn respect.
In Conclusion, if we standardize pay, we will never push ourselves to better our clinical knowledge base...if we offer things for experience...for going the extra mile...for going above the call of duty then we deserve to be recognized and acknowledged for that best way to do that is to reward with higher pay.
Hope I don't offend anyone...just my opinion and experience.
Annette

Tweety, BSN, RN · Aug 5, 2005

............ but paying the BSN considerably more isn't going to work, as the majority of the staff nurse workforce are ADN's. Perhaps .50 to $1.00 would be fair for recognition of the extra initiative, but "equal work, equal pay" prevails for the most part, IMO.
We agree. Mind you I didn't read word for word everyone's response but I don't see much advocacy for "considerably more" pay for the BSN.
A diff. of .50 to 1.00 (which is what most hospitals pay for BSNs) is absolutely appropriate. My hosiptal offers 4% when you get a BSN, which for me would be about a dollar. Which for a new grad would be about 88 cents.
By no means should BSNs make significantly more than ADN. A token differential would be nice though and I'm all for that.

Amanda_RN · Aug 5, 2005

I have no problem with the BSN who has more responsibility than I making more than I do. In other professions, those with an associates or bachelors hold positions of increased responsibility, accordingly to their degrees, same should hold true for us. Doctor's don't only get paid more than NP's and PA's because they go to school longer, it is also and mostly because they are much more liable and apt to be held ultimately respnsible for something gone wrong than the NP or PA is. (They need to make more to pay for that malpractice insurance! )

At the hospital I worked out nurses that were BSN prepared were the only ones allowed to be promoted to higher positions. ADN nurses could be charge nurses, but that was it. One of the charge nurses I worked under had to go back to school to move up in her position. So BSN prepared nurses are the ones who will eventually end up with more responsibility.

Dragonfair · Aug 5, 2005

My Senior year we had to do a change project. Mine because I'm a trouble maker I guess, was to get the hosptal to change the name tag so BSN's would be recognized. I was told NO the patient would want the person with the most education and do alot of comparing. Yes I'm a 4 year BSN only because our 2 year wasn't up and going. I would take a 2 year over a 4 year because they get more floor time. I have percepted two Interns and the 2 year got up and worked and the 4 year had to be pushed. Now those of you who are BSN and ADN don't get insulted. I'm not a basher just making a statement. I just got off a shift of 16 hours which were not voluntary, I was charge(no extra money) and didn't get my charts open because I didn't get a chance til 9am. So were have to fight for what we want and Bargaining Units are sounding better everyday.