Many ADN-BSN online programs tried to deceive students into believing that they can get their BSN from ADN in 13 months or less. That's a lie and false advertisement. They are not telling the whole story.
For example, University of Texas at Arlington advertises this past spring that you can get your degree from ADN to BSN in 13 months. After you enrolled and pay their high tuition rates, they want you to take from them American History I and II, Texas history, and other courses that have nothing to do with Nursing. You can take these same courses from Community Colleges in California at 1/6 their cost, but if you do they may or may not accept them for credit. For example, I have a friend who took US History from a community college. UTA does not accept them for transfer credit. Their Academic Advisors are trained to do what is good for business, and not what is good for you, the student. Be careful and do not fall for their traps! They want you to stay longer in their school, and pay for their courses that nobody wants to take, such as political science, and so forth
I heard that Excelsior College gives you 35 BSN credits for your NCLEX. They don't give you the run around treatment. They are located in Albany, New York. Their tuition is a little higher, but you can graduate sooner with no hassle and stumbling blocks.
If avengingspirit wants to prove ADN nurses are on par with BSN nurses; meaning, if he wants to do a study correlating that new grad ADN and BSN have similar outcomes, he is going to have to cite the study as well...
^ I'm suggesting to avengingspirit to basically propose a study, and publish it...if he wants to "prove" anything, he can at least replicate or do a design using all ADN nurses and then compare the results from the previous studies, or at least the Canadian studies.
I'm actually quite fond of the Canadian skill mix studies as well; my research proposal for my BSN was about increased experience nets better outcomes using Benner's method, and most of my research was based on the Canadian studies listed-great stuff.
If avengingspirit wants to prove ADN nurses are on par with BSN nurses; meaning, if he wants to do a study correlating that new grad ADN and BSN have similar outcomes, he is going to have to cite the study as well...
^ I'm suggesting to avengingspirit to basically propose a study, and publish it...if he wants to "prove" anything, he can at least replicate or do a design using all ADN nurses and then compare the results from the previous studies, or at least the Canadian studies.
I'm actually quite fond of the Canadian skill mix studies as well; my research proposal for my BSN was about increased experience nets better outcomes using Benner's method, and most of my research was based on the Canadian studies listed-great stuff.
Very few individuals have a blank check like the Aiken group had to come up with a promotion to help increase enrollments at four year schools. And with all the backing and support, they chose to take the cheap route; most likely because they were told to get it out there fast. If they really wanted to try to prove better patient outcomes with more BSN nurses, they would have studied real nurses with real patients in real hospital situations. But as it says in their own words, that's not what they did. They knew if they did do that they wouldn't come with the conclusions they were paid for. So they had to fabricate it. They proved nothing except how gullible many Americans still are. Every doctor and nurse I spoke with said they knew it was just all about money; everyone except those who push it for their own self-serving purposes. Part of what I'm doing is sending the testimonials of real working doctors and nurses, not those hiding in academia and related organizations hoping they'll never have to face the real world again. First they tried to get it done legislatively. When there was such a backlash because these idiots wanted to take licenses away from nurses if they didn't get a BSN within a certain amount of time, even lawmakers wouldn't touch that. So they had to find another way. And it worked for a little while until there came more backlash about loan debt and the ever increasing prices at four year schools with no more real world or critical thinking skills to show for it. And if the so-called study really wasn't about the money, they would have came out and rebuffed those who used their study for that purpose. They never did. Again, do what you feel is right and so will I. I've dealt with people before who thought they were smarter than everyone else because they had friends and contacts on the admissions committees that helped get them into doctoral and other advanced degree programs. An acquaintance of mine who was becoming an MD first told me of the concept over-educated idiots years ago. I never quite understood the true meaning of that until fairly recently the last few years after hearing some of the things said by politicians and reading some of the things that I see on sites like this.
Then, avengingspirit, you should have enough data to disprove it; "expose" is more effective if you have some form of research behind it...produce that data.
You don't need a blank check...if you have support, then you can survey data of how what facilities have primarily ADNs, look up CMS outcomes per facility-problem solved.
As I stated before on previous threads with you avengingspirit, do your work...but if you are going to "prove" something and have the support, propose your own study or the data.
You've been posting this for three years...you stated you had the press and people on your side as you've even to the point you mentioned that you were close to it being presented to the public in the Philly area, yet it hasn't come.
Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.
Gather your data and challenge how this Aiken study is being used, then you may get the traction you desire.
A side note relating to having a bachelors vs an associates. In my first career when i was hiring new employees, i preferred a ba/bs over an as/aas. That was because i felt those who completed a 4 year program had a more well rounded education. This was for a non-management position that quite often led to promotion to management. And i found that i usually had higher performance from those who had 4 year degrees.
Then, avengingspirit, you should have enough data to disprove it; "expose" is more effective if you have some form of research behind it...produce that data.
You don't need a blank check...if you have support, then you can survey data of how what facilities have primarily ADNs, look up CMS outcomes per facility-problem solved.
As I stated before on previous threads with you avengingspirit, do your work...but if you are going to "prove" something and have the support, propose your own study or the data.
You've been posting this for three years...you stated you had the press and people on your side as you've even to the point you mentioned that you were close to it being presented to the public in the Philly area, yet it hasn't come.
Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.
Gather your data and challenge how this Aiken study is being used, then you may get the traction you desire.
On other threads on this website, over the last 3 years I have posted data and links to it that disprove the findings of the Aiken study. I believe I saved them and will have to go back and find them. I know it's a while ago but I believe you did see them because many of those responding on this page, I remember seeing previously on the other threads. In any event, I won't walk back on anything I mentioned in my above post, because the actions of those driving the BSN push (I believe a person's actions rather than their words convey true intent) have spoken volumes. I never said the press and people were on my side. I did say I met with a reporter from one of the big 3 networks who wanted to try to get the story pushed. She asked me if nay more nurses would be willing to speak out. I put it out on this site and asked that if nay nurses wanted to speak out to contact me using the private option and I would put them in touch with the reporter. What I found through responses was that although most nurses felt the same way about the BSN and Magnet Status pushes, they were too afraid of repercussions to speak out. Remember, many hospitals make a lot of money now by offering on-site RN-BSN programs. It's a win-win for both sides. The schools make money with the hospitals ensuring the seats are filled by giving nurses ultimatums; and the hospitals win by making money from leasing the space. One of the main reasons for lack of respect for nurses is that management sees they are afraid to speak out; and it doesn't matter what type of degree a nurse has.
For what it's worth though, you come through as being sincere and I respect you for that. You're not condescending and don't come off like you think you're smarter than everyone else. I see the same in the person emtb2rn who posted above. Even if I may not agree with everything someone says, I always respect those who display honesty and sincerity. I just have a deep contempt for those who come off as phonies.
If you want to add some more anecdotal information to your collection. . . .I personally (n=1) felt improved by my RN to BSN education. Additionally, my employee evaluation scores improved because I increased my involvement in my unit related to committees (because I wanted to help improve my unit) and engaging in sharing evidence-based practices. I personally think employee evaluations are poor metrics of one's value as a nurse so that's why I specified what actions help boost my scores.
Our hospital is one that has been magnet for a while. They are really putting the pressure on people to complete their BSN and they offer over $5,000 a year for reimbursement. I think they do have some kind of collaborative with one State university but I don't think it's profitable for them (I think it more affects people getting their initial licensure BSN). I would say no more than 10-15% of the nurses who have gone back have gone through that university. That university is well regarded and known as one of the cheapest in the nation. But almost everyone is choosing colleges/universities that are on the more reasonable side. Those of us that went through recently help counsel the ones just starting on tips and tricks to keep costs down and be successful in course work. Most are also taking it at a pace that will allow the employee to stay within the tuition reimbursement limit which means 2-3 years for most.
I'd say pretty confidently that my hospital (n=1) is not making any money on this deal.
I personally don't like these kinds of limited data but I offer it to those who prefer one-on-one case studies.
Also, our percentage of BSNs has steadily increased over the last 5 years while our LOS, CLABSI, and VAP rate have gone down. Do with this information as you please.
If you want to add some more anecdotal information to your collection. . . .I personally (n=1) felt improved by my RN to BSN education. Additionally, my employee evaluation scores improved because I increased my involvement in my unit related to committees (because I wanted to help improve my unit) and engaging in sharing evidence-based practices. I personally think employee evaluations are poor metrics of one's value as a nurse so that's why I specified what actions help boost my scores.
Our hospital is one that has been magnet for a while. They are really putting the pressure on people to complete their BSN and they offer over $5,000 a year for reimbursement. I think they do have some kind of collaborative with one State university but I don't think it's profitable for them (I think it more affects people getting their initial licensure BSN). I would say no more than 10-15% of the nurses who have gone back have gone through that university. That university is well regarded and known as one of the cheapest in the nation. But almost everyone is choosing colleges/universities that are on the more reasonable side. Those of us that went through recently help counsel the ones just starting on tips and tricks to keep costs down and be successful in course work. Most are also taking it at a pace that will allow the employee to stay within the tuition reimbursement limit which means 2-3 years for most.
I'd say pretty confidently that my hospital (n=1) is not making any money on this deal.
I personally don't like these kinds of limited data but I offer it to those who prefer one-on-one case studies.
Also, our percentage of BSNs has steadily increased over the last 5 years while our LOS, CLABSI, and VAP rate have gone down. Do with this information as you please.
That's great that your hospital is doing that . And maybe declining enrollments are not as big an issue as they are here. In parts of the Mid-Atlantic and PA, many schools are in deep financial trouble and need to bring in revenue any way they can. Most of the nurses I spoke to here said they barely got enough reimbursement to pay for books. My issue with hospitals is that most facilities won't even give new nurses a chance to get their feet in the door and get experience and then possibly further their education. And the nursing organizations seem to be OK with that even though they're supposed to represent all nurses. And then when I researched those driving the BSN push and who they worked for, I felt that if it walks like a duck............... Employers have the right to hire, not hire or fire whoever they want. And that's the way it should be. But nurses also have the right to speak out about what hey see going on in healthcare. And much of it isn't good. I am looking to get away from the NE area as I believe there are other parts of the country that are better for nurses and better to live in general. If you live in one, that's good.
I'll do what I feel I have to and you do the same. We'll let the court of public opinion decide once they have the truth. Bottom line is what's in the best interest of the people.
In the compassion of your believes I am sensing anger. *One could admire that that kind of compassion. *In the end though you reject case study after case studies presented by others with higher education supporting education*as nothing more than propaganda that supports higher education. *Now that's ok because your using freewill. It reminds me of the argument. Is the cup half full or is the cup half empty when stuck in ones view point that rejects all surrounding evidence.*
I consider this your best comment. *'Bottom line is what's in the best interest of the people.' *The answer is very obvious, *it's always more education. *If it wasn't. Then, just let the cna's take over the bedside care. ****
I am looking to get away from the NE area as I believe there are other parts of the country that are better for nurses and better to live in general. If you live in one, that's good.
I live in the good 'ole lone state. This area never suffered as badly from the economic crash, and I know we are lucky in that respect. Of course, we are not so lucky in others. Employee rights? "What are you, a communist or something?" (said with a deep Texas drawl)
I believe that at least 50% of the reasoning for the educational benefits we have is window dressing for Magnet. But you know what? Window dressing or not, I'm going jump on that benefit even if it does require me re-faxing those forms 2-3 more times. I won't care when you cut me that fat reimbursement check.
Oh, and around these parts. . . .the employers don't need to provide a reason for firing you. If you can't prove it was due to a protected class (race, gender), that's it, move on. Better luck next time.
In the compassion of your believes I am sensing anger. *One could admire that that kind of compassion. *In the end though you reject case study after case studies presented by others with higher education supporting education*as nothing more than propaganda that supports higher education. *Now that's ok because your using freewill. It reminds me of the argument. Is the cup half full or is the cup half empty when stuck in ones view point that rejects all surrounding evidence.*
I consider this your best comment. *'Bottom line is what's in the best interest of the people.' *The answer is very obvious, *it's always more education. *If it wasn't. Then, just let the cna's take over the bedside care. ****
Sorry, I respectfully disagree. It's experience. If I were in a hospital as a patient, I want that nurse with the 20+ years of experience with the certifications that demonstrate excellence in specific areas of nursing such as critical care ICU........ Unfortunately these are the nurses hospitals are phasing out so they can hire new young, naive nurses at the bottom of the pay scale and who are in much student loan debt that they're apprehensive about questioning management for fear of being terminated. Patient care should be the priority, but in hospitals today, it's not.
On other threads on this website, over the last 3 years I have posted data and links to it that disprove the findings of the Aiken study. I believe I saved them and will have to go back and find them. I know it's a while ago but I believe you did see them because many of those responding on this page, I remember seeing previously on the other threads. In any event, I won't walk back on anything I mentioned in my above post, because the actions of those driving the BSN push (I believe a person's actions rather than their words convey true intent) have spoken volumes. I never said the press and people were on my side. I did say I met with a reporter from one of the big 3 networks who wanted to try to get the story pushed. She asked me if nay more nurses would be willing to speak out. I put it out on this site and asked that if nay nurses wanted to speak out to contact me using the private option and I would put them in touch with the reporter. What I found through responses was that although most nurses felt the same way about the BSN and Magnet Status pushes, they were too afraid of repercussions to speak out. Remember, many hospitals make a lot of money now by offering on-site RN-BSN programs. It's a win-win for both sides. The schools make money with the hospitals ensuring the seats are filled by giving nurses ultimatums; and the hospitals win by making money from leasing the space. ***One of the main reasons for lack of respect for nurses is that management sees they are afraid to speak out; and it doesn't matter what type of degree a nurse has****
For what it's worth though, you come through as being sincere and I respect you for that. You're not condescending and don't come off like you think you're smarter than everyone else. I see the same in the person emtb2rn who posted above. Even if I may not agree with everything someone says, I always respect those who display honesty and sincerity. I just have a deep contempt for those who come off as phonies.
Where I started , I wanted to point out, as a healthcare activist, and in PA, you'd be surprised how many ARE forcing employers to be fair...and many work in facilities that employ ADNs.
Many young and new are sick and tired of doing more with less, and have taken steps to force employers to do what is right; so don't be mistaken in your quest that nurses are afraid to speak out, when many are not and are growing by the day.
BostonFNP, APRN
2 Articles; 5,584 Posts
They do, of course.