Hey everyone. I am a beginning nursing student wondering about a few things. I was contemplating the idea of working in oncology, but Im unsure about how to handle the death experience. I am an agnostic/borderline athiest. I was questioning whether I would be able to provide complete care of a patient with different religious views. What Im wondering is if I can still be a good nurse in a setting where I am bound to deal with this situation over and over again.
We studied clutural differences in class today. We were told that it is our responsiblity as nurses to care for patients regardless of cultural differences. Im not questioning my ability to care for a dying patient in a physical way, but more of the spiritual part of it. I try to respect all beliefs. Would it be wrong to pray with a patient even if I dont believe in it? If a patient asks for comfort and to be told that they are going to heaven would it be ok to tell them yes even if I do not belive in a life after death? I dont think I would mind doing these things for a patient if asked, Im justs wondering if it is moral to do so.
I did a search for athiest nurses, and this forum is what I came up with. I got to read part of a really hot debate on this topic, but I think it got locked down. Im not trying to start another religious debate, but I was wondering about all of this. I guess the bottom line of what Im asking is if it is ok to pretend to believe what someone else does in order to give them comfort?
Any feedback would be appreciated and please remeber that I am only a nursing student with no experience yet.
Very confusing to me. I would just like to ask a few questions. If I may? ...Thank you
Ok if you are agnostic borderline atheist just what is the dividing line? I have always been a little unclear, is it that agnostic is sort of nilist in other words they believe in noting and atheist beleive in other things just not religion?
Second if you are concerned about morales what is your basis for morales? I mean those of us that are even semi religious basically follow the old standards you know basically the Ten commandments. So where do your values and morales come from and to what degree are they important? I mean if you don't beleive anything you do in life matters what is the point? Secondly I am curious as to what end a career of helping others is appealing to you?
This is very interesting to me and I am not being flippant or sarcastic I am curious.
Is lieing a big problem especially lieing about something that other people hold sacred and how do you feel that people would feel if after having prayed with them they found out you were atheist etc?
If people are dying and they are looking to you for comfort and you tell them you don't believe in God or religion and you think that death is just the big dirt nap will this be a comfort to them?
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01-17-2004 05:47 AM
I hope im doing this right....still trying to figure it all out.
Well I cant speak for everyone, but to me an agnostic is someone who isnt quite sure what they belive, and an athiest is someone who doesnt belive in god. I think those terms are used loosley and may have a slightly different meaning to each person.
Im always surprised that alot of people think that athiest do not have morals. My morals are based on my interpretation of what I think is right and wrong in terms of humanity and life in general.
I think you should respect life in all its forms because it is the right thing to do and because doing so will hopefuly ensure the continuation of the human race. Religion aside I believe that life is a precious, precious thing and we should do what we can to enhance and appreciate it. The idea that there might not be another life after this one makes me want to make the most of this one...for myself and others. Life does matter....it is a fragile, awesome thing that I think most of us take for granted most of the time.
I think helping others will be satisfying. I like the idea of being able to provide some sort of comfort or help to others. I think I can learn from the people that I care for and make myself a better person for having done so.
The question about praying with someone is what Im trying to get feedback on. Im unsure about how I would handle that. I could get another nurse to come and take my place, but what would happen if no one was available? I think the humane thing to do would be to keep my beliefs to myself and comfort the patient in the way they request. No one would ever know except me and god (if I believed in that) and Im sure god wouldnt mind if I helped someone pray to him. I would never be so crass as to tell someone on their deathbed that there was no god or afterlife if they believed otherwise.
I think that is a morally sound decision, but Im interested to know if you or anyone else things that I am wrong. Normally I dont think it is ok to lie, but in this case I think the best thing to do is just not offer up the truth.
I think after answering this post that I have answered my own question. However, anyone else feel free to take a turn.
Good I thought you might answer your own question if you gave it enough thought. I really rarely discuss religion with my Pts and I am never asked to pray with them usually they have a pastor or someoent that comes if they are religious and they do that together.
Every hospital in the nation has a chaplain service -- if a patient asks you to pray with them, or makes ANY other comment that suggests they are seeking spiritual support, there is always the option of asking if he or she would like a chaplain to visit.
A few years ago, I was doing psych consultation-liaison work at a big teaching hospital. I was really surprised at how often we would get a request for a consult on a patient, when it would turn out when I talked to the patient that what would be most appropriate (and what the patient was really looking for) was a visit from a chaplain. We had a wonderful chaplain service at the medical center, and they were eager to be involved in patient care -- I never figured out why the nursing staff were always so quick to recommend a psych consult but didn't think about calling the chaplains' office!
I, too, describe myself as an agnostic/borderline atheist. My spirituality is more philosophical than religious and my morality is not based on a fear of being punished (sent to Hell) if I do something that the "man upstairs" doesn't like. However, I have had nuns tell me I am a very spiritual person.
That said ...
I worked for many years in NICU and cared for many dying babies and their families. And like everyone else, I have had friends and co-workers face deaths in their personal lives.
When asked, I usually say something like, "I am not a church-goer" and leave it at that. It rarely does anyone any good to discuss religious beliefs in detail in the workplace. When patients want to pray, I am quiet and respectful -- bowing my head in respect, but not actively joining in by pretending to believe when I do not. If a patient wants/needs more religious support than I am comfortable giving, I call the chaplain.
As I get older, it all gets more comfortable for me. When I was a new nurse, I asked many of the same questions asked by the original poster. But as years went by, it became easier to provide comfort and support while simultaneously staying genuine -- without having to pretend anything. I think that is a big key to providing support, being genuine in your caring and respect for the other person's needs and beliefs. If you can do that, then the details of the religious beliefs become easier to negotiate.
It's a fallacy that morals (or ethics) are only made available through religion. Here are some interesting articles for anyone interested - scroll down to the "Morality and Ethics: Are They Possible Without God" section. http://hem.passagen.se/nicb/atheism.htm
Anyway, to the OP, as an atheist, I have had no moral or ethical conflicts in nursing. I cannot actually pray with a patient (and have never been asked) but can find someone who can if necessary. I respect that faith is important to many people and will definately go way out of my way to provide them with comforting resources if needed. Our intakes specifically ask if the person is in need of clergy, and in my field we do ask that question again as necessary.
It is more usual that I may enter a room during a prayer session or ceremony involving family and/or clergy, in which case I might just quietly slip back out. Sometimes, a person may comment something like "It's in God's hands now" or "Only God knows", to which an affirmitive response in indicated. The one question I have hoped to avoid (and have) has been "Will you pray with me?" to which I will answer "I will call the Chaplain."
Without trying to judge anyone's personal views, can I just ask a couple of questions please?
How can anyone look at the natural world and all of it's inter-related complexities, and not believe that there is a God?
Can people really believe that all of creation was the result of some hap-hazard event? That a mixture of gasses under the right circumstances underwent a "Big Bang" and life came to be?
One of the laws of nature (The Second Law of Thermodynamics) is that matter tends to go from a state of organization toward a state of total disorganization... Big Bang would tell you to believe the opposite. Like... "let's pour all these nuts and bolts on the floor, and when we come back, we'll have a Mercedes"...
Again, I'm not trying to judge anyone, I just don't see how people can not see that there's a bigger power involved here!
"How can anyone look at the natural world and all of it's inter-related complexities, and not believe that there is a God? "
I think the universe was naturally created. How? I don't know, exactly. But just because I don't know every answer, I don't feel compelled to fill that empty spot with "God" when I think a perfectly natural explanation will do.
"Can people really believe that all of creation was the result of some hap-hazard event? That a mixture of gasses under the right circumstances underwent a "Big Bang" and life came to be?"
Why not? It seems more plausible to me. Who made God? If "God" can ' just be', why not anything else?
"One of the laws of nature (The Second Law of Thermodynamics) is that matter tends to go from a state of organization toward a state of total disorganization... Big Bang would tell you to believe the opposite. Like... "let's pour all these nuts and bolts on the floor, and when we come back, we'll have a Mercedes"..."
Not to be rude, but I suspect you don't have a very good understanding of this subject (and I am not an expert, either). I think you are actually referring to entropy. I, personally, try to not get my science education from the pulpit.
The 2LOT deals specifically with heat transfer, but does have limited chemical and biological applications. A typical chemical example would be a snowflake or frost pattern. Molecules do line up in certain ways that are predictable (with a little heat transfer) as the 'designer'. A biological example would be a chicken arising from an egg (with DNA as the 'designer).
I don't see why over the course of 13.5 Billion years, life could not evolve to the extent it has today. Actually, I think that it is even more 'miraculous' that it occured naturally than supernaturally.
Without trying to judge anyone's personal views, can I just ask a couple of questions please?
How can anyone look at the natural world and all of it's inter-related complexities, and not believe that there is a God?
!
I appreciate the "non-flaming" attitude with which you posed your questions. I'll do my best to answer without offending you in return.
Like crankyasanoldma said, I look at all the complexity in the universe and think it must have evolved bit by bit over time. Pieces added, shaped somewhat haphazardly by whatever forces were at play at the time. That's why there is irregularity, contradictions, etc. instead of uniformity. No one in his/her right mind (such as a supreme being) would have designed it that way all at once.
That does't mean I don't appreciate the majesty of it all. I just don't ascribe a consciousness to the forces behind it's evolution. In my mind, the fact that it is all "natural" as opposed to "supernatural" makes it all that more wondrous. And I delight in the knowledge that it is still happening today ... and will continue to evolve tomorrow.
I find the need that some people have to believe that a "personified" god made conscious decisions to create all the stuff in the world (good stuff, bad stuff, etc.) rather quaint and somewhat primative. Please don't be offended by that. I just don't know better words to use. I've never really understood how intelligent people can actually believe that there is some conscious being behind the scenes ... pulling the strings ... controlling all the details of all the events in the universe.
The best explanation I have found for myself regarding the prevalence of religion and the belief in a diety was discussed in Time Magazine not too long ago. I believe that the human mind seeks to understand the world and seeks to find patterns and meaning within the input it receives. It is that constant seeking of understanding and meaning that serves as a foundation for intelligence. The development of creation myths, deities, etc. grows out of that mental tendency. Each culture develops its own "mythologies" to explain the world -- whether it is Christianity, Islam, Budhism, Greek Mythology, etc. They are all the same -- attempts to answer fundamental questions about why things are the way the are. As that, they are worthy of consideration and respect ... but these belief systems are created in the human mind and are not necesessarily representative of the true facts.
I'm a medical nurse not a priest or a nun. The spiritual needs of the patient and family must be addressed. Doesn't mean I have to be the one praying, etc. Just that I have to meet those needs. For me most of the time that is met through the chaplin service, or by calling their personal clergy. By acknowledging and respecting the beliefs of my patient and family I can care for the physical being that is my patient.
Without trying to judge anyone's personal views, can I just ask a couple of questions please?
How can anyone look at the natural world and all of it's inter-related complexities, and not believe that there is a God?
For me it's easier to look at the world as random rather than there's a being up there manipulating things "gee I think I'll answer that prayer and help Jane find her keys, gee George is going to be late for work, I'll give him a green light, it's time for me to take Mary, think I'll cause that plane to crash, but I'll spare Louise because I have a plan for her. I think I'll make a gorgeous sunset tonight."
That's just me.
It's a whole lot easier for me to state my beliefs rather than question why people don't believe as I do.
Another atheist nurse here. I was raised as a catholic, but when I was old enough to think for myself (early adolescence) I simply stopped believing in the existence of god. Now I am a hospice nurse, and am pretty certain I am the only non-believer in my office. Although I have not yet been asked to pray with a pt, I have, on occasion, made references to god when I felt that would be comforting to the pt. I feel that when I am in a pt's home I need to make the effort to work within the pt's frame of reference, and my theological opinions simply don't matter.
As someone that is Jewish and from a predominantly Christian area, it is easier to keep religious specifics out of patient care. Otherwise, I run in to the problem of people attempting to convert me (coworkers and patients).
While I do pray with patients, many Christians pray "in the name of Jesus Christ" - I keep silent. It is rarily noticed.
It's a whole lot easier for me to state my beliefs rather than question why people don't believe as I do.
Maybe God or what I like to think about as the Universal Consciouness is watching I don't like o think that there is someone making snap decisions on daily little happenings. I sort of feel like all things are inter-connected by the thread of consciousness. So that maybe there is a Power that is continuous and perhaps able to control some things that happen.
But I digress the question I have especially for nurses is do you think the theory of evolution is plausible. Could it have been a cosmic happenstance that all of the elements needed to create life fell together by accident. When I began learning about the human body I became more and more certain that someone or something intervened to create Man in all of his comlpexity. Not just the body that functions on a system that breaths in air and expels C02, the fact that blood circulates and carries oxygen thoughout the body, these things not with standing the Brain is a complex structure that needs more than a little explanation.
These are some of the things that make me more certin that there is a Higher Power at work in the Universe.
I also agree that religion is a BAD topic to discuss as there are as many opinions, ideas and beleifs as there are people to discuss them.
To alikat70
I think you could and likely will be very comforting to someone in there time of need and if you feel that you can pray with them and not offend your own beleifs then all will be fine... as you said if there is a God he should never be unforgiving for one who is praying even in disbelief in the interest of helping another.
CCU NRS
1,245 Posts
Good I thought you might answer your own question if you gave it enough thought. I really rarely discuss religion with my Pts and I am never asked to pray with them usually they have a pastor or someoent that comes if they are religious and they do that together.