NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees

[Brian]

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse.

New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN certification-a step that critics worry could serve as a body blow to a profession already facing a severe shortage.

Under the state Board of Nursing proposal, RNs with associate's degrees would have to earn bachelor's degrees within 10 years, or their RN certifications would be downgraded to that of licensed practical nurse. That would make nursing somewhat like teaching in New York state; certified K-12 teachers need master's degrees or must obtain one within three years of starting a job. It would also add years and thousands of dollars to the difficulty of becoming an RN...

Full Article: http://www.rochesterdandc.com/news/0413BA3TIOG_news.shtml

[NephroBSN, BSN, RN]

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[NephroBSN, BSN, RN]

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[DusktilDawn]

In other words, the ADNs and diploma nurses need to validate their self worth and self importance, and the best way to do that is to believe the administration when they tell them these things. Administration then doesn't have to be the bad guy, and make a big thing out depriving nurses with a higher degree a higher rate of pay. They just tell the ADNs and Diploma nurses, "WELL, those nurses with those BSNs. THEY WANT TO MAKE MORE MONEY THAN YOU BECAUSE THEY HAVE A MEASLY PIECE OF PAPER!!! IMAGINE THAT!!! And the ADNs and Diploma nurses do their dirty work for them in contract negotiations. And they come out smelling like a rose.

And the ADNs and Diploma nurses fall for it hook, line and sinker. And the administration is laughing all the way to their board room meetings.

JMHO.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

Seems more like some BSNs are buying this crap hook, line and sinker, and using it as a battle cry. Since there usually is not a difference (or very little) in pay why would Diploma or ADNs be complaining? Seems to me this is something that would be told to a BSN inquiring why they are not making more than a Diploma or ADN. In fact I've yet to hear an administrator even PROVIDE a reason why BSNs are not compensated more monetarily, never mind bothering to soothe any nurse's bruised ego about ANYTHING. BSNs aren't getting recognized and paid because administration doesn't want to hurt the feelings of Diploma and ADNs, PUUULLLEEAASSE, if anything that would be incentive for them to pay BSNs substantially more and create further division among the ranks if this was actually true. If administrators actually valued nurses and their education, they would pay a BSN substantially more, at the very least as an incentive to obtain a BSN. Who's really validating their self worth here?

You dismiss BSN entry level doing nothing for nurses in those countries because of "culture" and how they view women and female dominated professions, however this is not true of all countries that require a BSN entry level. BSN has been an entry level in Ontario (Canada) since 2005, no changes yet, and if things continue the way they have, I don't see changes happening in 10, 20, or 30 years in regards to respect, value, and montetary compensation. You went on to state how "socialization" impacts nurses in this country, and it does to a point. In general, nurses are not valued in this country (or Canada for that matter), but then again neither are teachers who do have a BSN entry level and in fact if I'm not mistaken at least 40% of teachers have their Masters. Elementary school teachers, the very teachers who teach our children, the children who will be the next generation of doctors, lawyers, engineers, NURSES, etc, and can we honestly say they are being paid what they are worth considering their educational requirements: http://www.dcjobsource.com/2004teachersalaries.html

You can argue lack of unions, in fact the vast majority of nurses in Canada are unionized, yet still very little to show for it. I'm personally not against unions per se, however I will say any union will only be as strong as it's members, because a union IS it's members. It requires participation, it's not about waiting for someone or something to make it better for you, it's about YOU making it better.

The biggest problem with the nursing profession is the lack of cohesion amongst nurses, ALL NURSES. If nurses stuck together on one unit in one hospital they could change things on their unit. If nurses in one hospital stuck together they could change things for that hospital. If nurses banned together throughout a state, they could change legislature in that state.

[NephroBSN, BSN, RN]

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[PANurseRN1]

I would say that it has more to do with the culture of the country, and its male dominated heirarchy. In other words, nurses are women and women are not respected as part of their culture, regardless of what they do. Women are less equal than men, when it comes to respect, and the impact and control that they are allowed to have. In other words, women are treated like dirt, regardless of how much or little education they have. Nursing is not respected because it is a female dominated profession. Period. It doesn't matter how much education they have. Women in these countries have no power when they are in female dominated professions, just like here.

But it doesn't have to be like that in this country. It has become like that because nurses have been slow to unionize and take control of their profession. Without a union contract, they are afraid to complain, and bring their concerns to the public. They would be, and are, being fired, in retaliatory discharges. They are made the "example", for everyone to see what happens when you complain.

In this country, it has more to do with our socialization as less worthy than physicians, and the culture that grew up around nursing, as being subservient handmaidens to physicians, who until recently, were mostly men. It is not like that in other professions, and it doesn't have to be like that in nursing.

The women in these countries in female dominated professions are VERY subservient to men and authority in general, and it shows in the way they are so easily intimidated by the hospital administration. That is why hospitals like to being them over here. They are so easily pushed around, and threatened with being sent back to their own country in disgrace if they don't do what they are told.

It doesn't have to be like that here. I cannot believe how naive nurses are. WHO is tellling you that a BSN is not important? Who refuses to recognize and reward nurses with BSNs? Who, in general, treats you like crap? Who lies to you, and continuously works at making your contributions to patient care and outcomes invisible? And now you believe them when they say that "a nurse is a nurse is a nurse" regardless of how much education they have? I have a bridge in Brooklyn I will be happy to sell you, along with the beachfront property in the Arizona desert.

In other words, the ADNs and diploma nurses need to validate their self worth and self importance, and the best way to do that is to believe the administration when they tell them these things. Administration then doesn't have to be the bad guy, and make a big thing out depriving nurses with a higher degree a higher rate of pay. They just tell the ADNs and Diploma nurses, "WELL, those nurses with those BSNs. THEY WANT TO MAKE MORE MONEY THAN YOU BECAUSE THEY HAVE A MEASLY PIECE OF PAPER!!! IMAGINE THAT!!! And the ADNs and Diploma nurses do their dirty work for them in contract negotiations. And they come out smelling like a rose.

And the ADNs and Diploma nurses fall for it hook, line and sinker. And the administration is laughing all the way to their board room meetings.

JMHO.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

Maybe where you're from, but no one says that sort of thing here. Where I work, nurses are encouraged to take advantage of educational opportunities. My hosp. has an arrangement with a university for a once a week class (Saturday) for BSN completion. Do we get a lot of money for tuition reimb.? No, but we do get some.

They also encourage nurses to gain new skills. I just got put on the list for training for PICC insertion.

You continue to undermine diploma and ADN nurses as being naive, foolish, jaded people. You've more than once said we were no better than "blue collar trailer trash." And more than once you've stated that ADN and diploma nurses (like me) drag down the profession.

Attitudes such as yours do just as much damage to nursing's quest for unity as the ADN and diploma nurses who say a BSN is "just a bunch of fluff courses." Neither attitude helps the situation.

[ZASHAGALKA, RN]

The biggest problem with the nursing profession is the lack of cohesion amongst nurses, ALL NURSES. If nurses stuck together on one unit in one hospital they could change things on their unit. If nurses in one hospital stuck together they could change things for that hospital. If nurses banned together throughout a state, they could change legislature in that state.

EXACTLY

But how do you plan on nurses 'banding' together when 30% of nurses want to outlaw the other 70%?

This is a 'moot' debate. There will be and can be no change to the current educational pathways for some time to come. That is nursing economics 101. In the meantime, IT IS THIS VERY DEBATE that fractures nurses and robs us of the chance for the voice that would grab the brass ring of professionalism.

IT'S NOT ADNs THAT HOLD US BACK; IT'S THE ADN VS. BSN DEBATE itself. There are those that argue that not buying into the ADN/BSN debate means that the status quo will 'keep us down'. I believe that BUYING into the ADN/BSN debate fractures us over a moot point and 'keeps us down'.

Oh sure, we can and I think we SHOULD streamline and standardize the process from ADN to BSN.

But some have discussed this issue AS IF they believe that the ADN pathway is a sellout to the shortage; 'DECREASING' the value of the BSN program.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The BSN program has NEVER been a standard from which we are now deviating. NO. It's just a sham to state that 'other' professions wouldn't 'lower' their standards in a shortage. Neither has nursing.

The BSN program, just like the ADN program, is an evolution from diploma nursing, which itself is an evolution from 'OJT' training.

And as a result, Nurses are more highly trained than they have ever been. All nurses.

And I completely disagree that we will become 'professional' by unionizing. Unions are a sign of 'blue collar' work. If you want to be treated as a 'professional', the way to do so is NOT to sell your voice to a 'trade' organization.

Professionals affect change and policy through PROFESSIONAL organizations; not unions.

But, when our national organization represents less than 30% of nurses and then, only by using that voice to support left wing causes AT THE EXPENSE of nursing: is it any wonder we are stuck in between? Is it any wonder we have no effective professional organization? Ask our Canadian counterparts: Is it any wonder that a unified 'blue collar trade' protection of unions can't take the place of a professional organization?

You want this so-called 'respect'? BSN-entry won't grant it. Everyone that defines professionalism by THAT standard will always be 'technical' nurses by the lack of attainment of said standard. No. Respect will come with a voice that can't be ignored. And THAT voice requires, not arrows and slings at each other, but a unified consensus that the ADN/BSN debate will always deny.

I'm not a member of ANA. Why the heck would I be when they argue for my demise. . . And THAT'S the rub.

~faith,

Timothy.

[SmilingBluEyes]

John Stossel on 20/20 busted the myth of low paid teachers last night. They make middle class wages and only work 9 months out of the year. Ave. wage for teachers is mid $30's not peanuts in most of the country.

One teacher on his show actually makes $55,000 for nine months of work. Not too shabby.

And I can point you to plumbers, electricians and sanitation people, who make more than that, and in some cases, twice that (especially in the case of electrician, as a cousin of mine is one) And these folks , as a rule, do not have bachelor's or higher degrees. It's not about money, but respect and self-advocacy. And we don't even respect or advocate for ourselves as a profession as we can see right here.

And teachers ARE very low-paid in many areas. 55K is nothing in a place where housing may exceed 300-600K per house, as is the case in many metro areas.

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

So for those of you that do have your BSN: If the state you are working in implemented a reuqirement that you must have your MSN, not any Masters but your MSN..what kind of reaction would you have? I am just curious.

No one is forcing YOU to get a BSN. Grandfathering.

[ZASHAGALKA, RN]

No one is forcing YOU to get a BSN. Grandfathering.

That's a lie.

The point of grandfathering would be to grant a 'temporary' reprieve. It's a necessary selling point ONLY to sell the change, and no longer necessary once the change is made.

The ultimate goal is spelled out in the most wicked and nasty of the BSN-entry indoctrinations:

BSN = 'professional' nurse

ADN = 'technical' nurse.

No thank you and keep the above lie AND the lie about grandfathering.

I'd rather our voices be split and we be totally dominated by our administrators and allied peers than to have a voice that belongs to me yet nevertheless, advocates against me.

See the issue here is a unified voice. I believe the way to do that is to band together as NURSES. The BSN-entry argument is that, if we eliminate all dissenting voices, then we'll haved a unified voice by default.

Let me make this point clear: anybody that defines BSN-entry as the point/goal of professionalism is - and always will be - a 'technical' nurse. Why? In a world where professionalism is an aspiration, I'm no more of a professional than a BSN nurse.

And no less.

By that definition, we are ALL 'technical' nurses.

~faith,

Timothy.

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

Okay, so now we are all a bunch of blue collar trailer trash. I love it.

Please READ lindarn's post. That's not what she said.

[PANurseRN1]

She has said it many, many times in the past. Look through her old posts if you don't believe me.

[leslie :-D]

They just tell the ADNs and Diploma nurses, "WELL, those nurses with those BSNs. THEY WANT TO MAKE MORE MONEY THAN YOU BECAUSE THEY HAVE A MEASLY PIECE OF PAPER!!! IMAGINE THAT!!! And the ADNs and Diploma nurses do their dirty work for them in contract negotiations. And they come out smelling like a rose.

And the ADNs and Diploma nurses fall for it hook, line and sinker.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

good grief linda.

how can you honestly profess such a generalized, disparaging statement?

are all adns/diploma nurses really that short-sighted and gullible?

if it wasn't so preposterous, i'd find it laughable.

whatever you think, my dear.

leslie