NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees

[Brian]

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse.

New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN certification-a step that critics worry could serve as a body blow to a profession already facing a severe shortage.

Under the state Board of Nursing proposal, RNs with associate's degrees would have to earn bachelor's degrees within 10 years, or their RN certifications would be downgraded to that of licensed practical nurse. That would make nursing somewhat like teaching in New York state; certified K-12 teachers need master's degrees or must obtain one within three years of starting a job. It would also add years and thousands of dollars to the difficulty of becoming an RN...

Full Article: http://www.rochesterdandc.com/news/0413BA3TIOG_news.shtml

[zoeyzoe]

Sorry it wasn't 6 months it was 7.5 months June-January from Regents/Excelsior College, and yes it was an ASN degree.

Well, if you went to excelsior that's another story, it is possible to get your ADN in 7.5 months but that just your core nursing classes, and that also means that you were already something else like an lpn. So you did already go to school for at least 18 months prior to your entering excelsior. So I agree with the others, I don't know anyone who got their ADN who needed pre-recs in all, in just 2 years.

[michellebsn]

Again and again this go round with rn versus bsn. They both take the same tests. Dividing us up is not the way to stay unified and focused on patient care as well as safety. We are all RN's.WE need to unite and stay together!

[Teachchildren123]

Rfmages, I truly admire your honesty and agree with you 100%.

It does not make a bit of a difference, BSN, MSN or suprisingly enough: new grad. I work with a new grad who did the ECHO program and she is absolutly outstanding! It's in her blood my little "shrimp".

I also worked with seasoned nurses with degrees long like my arm, who did not have a micron of compassion, were rude with pts and family and did not use any critical thinking whatsoerver. Made me ashame of even breathing the same air! I just do not understand how they got so many diplomas-certificates and be so narrow-minded!I suspected once (or twice) that a MD or a senator... got his license in a Cracker Jack box!!!! Could it be!!! Well, even in the best family!

Thankfully, most of the nurses I work with are deep and kind souls and will try everything to make their pt's stay safe and healing. I could go on and on. This really make a difference in the workplace. Yes, we are rather autonomous on the unit and the MD's trusts our judgement, that's very sain and gratificating.:biggringi

As for the BSN to be a requirement: "My motto is that the best investment is in education" but at this time this would be unrealistic, totally absurd. Knowing how short-staffed we are every work day, knowing that this, among other elements affects negatively the quality of care. Obviously, thoses law-makers have not been hospitalised lately (with no VIP care please... another of my pete-peeve). Obviously, I do not have a BSN! Enough said.

[Teachchildren123]

Although, if someone would give me a full time salary and pay me education, I would say "YYYYYEEEEEEAH! Let me loose! But I am the bread winner.

[michellebsn]

I can only laugh about this comment, first off I dont care, if the person working with me is an ADN, BSN, MSN or for that fact a professor that taught me in school. YEs some know more then others and some use it better then others. But a nurse is a nurse, we are all a special breed and so this beacuse we love it or loved it at one time. I have heard banter about this law since I origianlly started nursing school back in 93 and 20 some years later and its still the same. IF it changes it shanges, we will all just have to deal with it and do what we have to. Now as far as the statement I quoted above, if you dont think that nurses are doing 80% of what MD's used to do, you ahvent been exposed to alot of different nursing opportunities. I wont say waht I do or dont do at work, but I can say that MD's encourage the nurses in our unit to be autonomous and take the bull by the horns. They know us and we know them and we watch out for each other. We do more now then ever before. Do we diagnosis, not on paper but if I call an MD or a PA for something, I usually tell them what I think it is and bam, I write an order for what I already gave. Enough said.

Thank you

! I got a lot of flak from a few people for saying the 80% thing.It was actually told to me my a mentor of mine, a doc who had worked with Debakey, Colley et al, on the first human and artificial heart transplants. He also said any one good nurse was betterr than two doctors( LOVE this GUY! ) It wasn't meant to denigrate MDs it was meant to emphasize ( having worked ER and Critical care) how much we do they used to.They are doing other things and don't often spend the time we do with pts. or even do procedures like they used too.They have become our area of responsibilty. I am attending a program (rn-bsn) in which the BSN's do get more clinical time in ares like gerontology, critical care and Ob-gyn. Also the theory is important. I looking at the whole persons body, mind and spirit. Anway there is nothing wrong with knowing the whys as well as how. A bit more education is a good thing. We all have life-long CME credits to keep up on1 :wink2:

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

Thank you

! I got a lot of flak from a few people for saying the 80% thing.It was actually told to me my a mentor of mine, a doc who had worked with Debakey, Colley et al, on the first human and artificial heart transplants. He also said any one good nurse was betterr than two doctors( LOVE this GUY! ) It wasn't meant to denigrate MDs it was meant to emphasize ( having worked ER and Critical care) how much we do they used to.They are doing other things and don't often spend the time we do with pts. or even do procedures like they used too.They have become our area of responsibilty. I am attending a program (rn-bsn) in which the BSN's do get more clinical time in ares like gerontology, critical care and Ob-gyn. Also the theory is important. I looking at the whole persons body, mind and spirit. Anway there is nothing wrong with knowing the whys as well as how. A bit more education is a good thing. We all have life-long CME credits to keep up on1 :wink2:

It depresses me to read some of the comments in this board from people are so anti-education when it comes to a nursing degree. Would you want to be cared for my a MD or lawyer who thought that "booklearning" was a waste of time when it had nothing to do with what they do at work? One doesn't learn to go to college to "do" stuff - you go to become a discriminating thinker. Nursing will always be cheap labor as long as we act like it. However, it would make more sense to keep the ADN programs up and running because too many people have no alternative. However, its not unfair to require the BS in 10 years. Most of the course work can be done on line. NY is grandfathering all present non-BSN RN's. They would be unaffected. We require more degrees from a piano teacher than we do for a nurse caring for our children.

[RN34TX]

It depresses me to read some of the comments in this board from people are so anti-education when it comes to a nursing degree. Would you want to be cared for my a MD or lawyer who thought that "booklearning" was a waste of time when it had nothing to do with what they do at work? One doesn't learn to go to college to "do" stuff - you go to become a discriminating thinker. Nursing will always be cheap labor as long as we act like it. However, it would make more sense to keep the ADN programs up and running because too many people have no alternative. However, its not unfair to require the BS in 10 years. Most of the course work can be done on line. NY is grandfathering all present non-BSN RN's. They would be unaffected. We require more degrees from a piano teacher than we do for a nurse caring for our children.

And after reading and participating in several of these threads, I'd like to know why anyone who isn't for the BSN as the minimal requirement for entry into nursing, so frequently get labeled as "anti-education"?

I've seen this "anti-education" label many times over if anyone dislikes the BSN minimum entry theory.

You are right in that one doesn't go to college "do" stuff, and nursing cannot be learned via hands on experience only. If that were true, then we'd all stay nursing assistants for 10-20 years until we got grandfathered into being RN's without any additional education.

However, on the flip side, I am truely tired of LPN education being discounted as being a year of merely learning skills and tasks, and that LPN's (or even ADN RN's for that matter according to some), only learn how to "do" something without really understanding why they are doing it.

I cringe every time someone proclaims that only one category of nurse (RN or BSN) is able to truely "critically think" (the oh so popular current buzzword in our profession and half of us don't even really understand what it means let alone actually do it in practice).

All I can say here is that nurses who have their mind dead set on believing that unions and BSN minimum entry are the answer to our profession's problems are living in a fantasy land.

I mention both because they seem to go hand in hand on so many threads here. I see it as pure irony.

Workers represented by a union screams blue collar by every way imaginable, yet alongside that, so many of us are preaching about bringing our profession up to respectable by the public's standards by making us all become BSN's.

I don't know about all of you, but the vast majority of my patients and their family members are not exactly doctors and lawyers.

I have a hard time believing that the 40-something daughter of my patient who works as a cashier at 7-11 is going to change her whole outlook and respect of nurses because we all got our BSN's.

The majority of hospitals barely give any type of additional compensation for nurses who have their BSN's and most BSN's report being paid either the same or close to the same as their ADN co-workers.

So how is it that so many here believe that if we all got our BSN's and made it the minimum standard of entry, that our salaries would magically go up and that hospital administrations would suddenly value us more highly?

[gina0720]

haven't they done this in some midwestern state? does anyone know how it has worked out? is the shortage more severe in that area? has pay gone up? job satisfaction? just wondering about this.....Also any canadians who have been working under the new BSN only statute what are your thoughts?

in north dakota , in the year 1987 they began to require rn's to have a bsn, those already rn's grandfathered in. Last year they changed the requirements, now rn 's can have a two year degree also. requiring bsn made a shortage worst.

[pickledpepperRN]

"If you build it, they will come"

I think if there were more slots in nursing programs at four year universities we would have more BSNs.

[lindarn]

And after reading and participating in several of these threads, I'd like to know why anyone who isn't for the BSN as the minimal requirement for entry into nursing, so frequently get labeled as "anti-education"?

I've seen this "anti-education" label many times over if anyone dislikes the BSN minimum entry theory.

You are right in that one doesn't go to college "do" stuff, and nursing cannot be learned via hands on experience only. If that were true, then we'd all stay nursing assistants for 10-20 years until we got grandfathered into being RN's without any additional education.

However, on the flip side, I am truely tired of LPN education being discounted as being a year of merely learning skills and tasks, and that LPN's (or even ADN RN's for that matter according to some), only learn how to "do" something without really understanding why they are doing it.

I cringe every time someone proclaims that only one category of nurse (RN or BSN) is able to truely "critically think" (the oh so popular current buzzword in our profession and half of us don't even really understand what it means let alone actually do it in practice).

All I can say here is that nurses who have their mind dead set on believing that unions and BSN minimum entry are the answer to our profession's problems are living in a fantasy land.

I mention both because they seem to go hand in hand on so many threads here. I see it as pure irony.

Workers represented by a union screams blue collar by every way imaginable, yet alongside that, so many of us are preaching about bringing our profession up to respectable by the public's standards by making us all become BSN's.

I don't know about all of you, but the vast majority of my patients and their family members are not exactly doctors and lawyers.

I have a hard time believing that the 40-something daughter of my patient who works as a cashier at 7-11 is going to change her whole outlook and respect of nurses because we all got our BSN's.

The majority of hospitals barely give any type of additional compensation for nurses who have their BSN's and most BSN's report being paid either the same or close to the same as their ADN co-workers.

So how is it that so many here believe that if we all got our BSN's and made it the minimum standard of entry, that our salaries would magically go up and that hospital administrations would suddenly value us more highly?

The reason that most hospitals do not give any more pay, or differentials to a nurse with a BSN, is because, BSNs don't demand it, and the ADNs and Diploma nurses whine, "but we do the same job, it isn't fair that they get paid more". And the hospitals, allergic to paying nurses more for anything, are more than willing to comply to keep the ADNs and Diploma nurses happy. It is also a matter of "divide and conquer". So the BSNs, leave and go where they can get an investment for their education, make more money, and probably work at less stressful jobs. And the myth continues with that common statement, that a BSN is only for nurses who want to go into management, or grad school, and that they don't want to work in a hospital and do patient care. The truth is they are pushed out of the hospital and bedside nursing. It is a viscious cycle.

Management would not just automatically decide to pay us more. However, an all BSN staff would cut the number of grads coming out of school. And by the fact that there are less nurses coming out of the pipeline, hospitals would have to work harder to hold onto the ones that they have. Just like the PTs. It is supply and demand. Demand leads to higher pay and respect. No one respects a pushover. And most nurses are pushovers. There is far too much supply of nurses coming out of "ABC Community College" every six months. And not enough incentive for hospitals to make them stay, pay them more and give them better benefits.

PTs and OTs increased their education levels dramatically. That, in and of itself, decreases the numbers of new ones coming out of the pipeline. The ones who stay and complete the programs are more commited to their profession. They have a lot more invested it in, and are not inclined to work for low wages, and poor working conditions. They have alot more self esteem because they made the effort to complete a Masters or a Doctorate program. They are told by their National Organization just how valuable they are, unlke nurses, who are a dime a dozen.

In other posts above, or on another thread, the nurses were saying that the hospital made them take the "BSN", off of their nametag, because the patients were requesting to be cared for by only BSN nurses. I would imagine that the ADN and Diploma nurses had their feelings hurt because the patients wanted a BSN for a nurse. Patients don't ask, or seem to care because most of them don't even know that they have that a choice. No one tells them. It seems, with the response at this hospital, that when patients are informed, and given a choice, they do prefer a nurse with a BSN who is more educated. And the care provided by the BSN nurse, for the patients who requested one, must have been satisfactary, or the patients wouldn't keep asking for one. Dispels a couple of myths, doesn't it?

That is the big fear of the ADNs and Diplomas. That patients will see the difference in the care with more education, and no one will want them as nurses if they are given a choice. The ADNs and Diplomas always say, "why should we get a BSN? There is no difference, the patients don't care, we don't get paid more, so I won't bother.". This experience tells us that yes, patients do care, and would choose the nurse with the higher education level to take care of them if given a choice. I am sure that this scenario gets played out more than we know, but the hospital, and non- BSN nurses, quickly play it down. We wouldn't want to hurt anyones feelings, would we? So we remain the lowest educated of health care professionals, and continue to scratch our heads, and ask why. Yes, it does make a difference. Connect the dots, folks.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

[RN34TX]

The ADNs and Diplomas always say, "why should we get a BSN? There is no difference, the patients don't care, we don't get paid more, so I won't bother.". This experience tells us that yes, patients do care, and would choose the nurse with the higher education level to take care of them if given a choice.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

Not always.

I'm an ADN and I am "bothering" with getting my BSN right now.

But the pay increase I'll receive upon getting it is downright insulting.

I'm hoping it's going to open more doors to me in the future, and not in management as I have no desire for that.

More myths dispelled.

Of course patients would choose a BSN nurse if made aware of the educational differences and given the choice, especially if they are given the impression that our degrees are our only differences as nurses in the kind of care they willl get.

When I needed a lawyer, I looked for one that was board certified in the specialty where I needed legal help.

I also looked for an MD who was board certified in their specialty.

But there's much more to it than that.

I also asked former clients/patients about their experiences and inquired about experience in their chosen specialties before making a final choice.

If a patient/family is given the choice of either an ADN nurse or a BSN nurse, most will choose the BSN because they really don't know any better and are under the impression that the BSN nurse will always be the better choice, because that's about all of the info they have to work with and can't see anything beyond who went to school the longest.

The one who went to school the longest must be the better nurse, right?

What they don't know is that the nurse that the family just selected for their loved one in the ICU on a vent and pressors is a BSN who's been an RN for about 6 months and never worked in any type of nursing prior to that.

The ADN nurse that they rejected in favor of the BSN is a 10 year ICU veteran with her CCRN certification. Prior to that she was a LPN for 10 years in med/surg.

Now which nurse do you want?

The public has no clue and it would be easy to convince them that any BSN nurse will always be the better choice.

It doesn't mean anything.

I do, however, agree with your theory about supply and demand and "ABC communty college" pumping out new grads every 6 months.

Hospitals do enjoy that fresh crop of new grads who are so much easier to push around and accept lower wages.

It makes it so much easier to tell the experienced nurses to get lost if they don't like how things are being run.

[NephroBSN, BSN, RN]

And after reading and participating in several of these threads, I'd like to know why anyone who isn't for the BSN as the minimal requirement for entry into nursing, so frequently get labeled as "anti-education"?

I've seen this "anti-education" label many times over if anyone dislikes the BSN minimum entry theory.

You are right in that one doesn't go to college "do" stuff, and nursing cannot be learned via hands on experience only. If that were true, then we'd all stay nursing assistants for 10-20 years until we got grandfathered into being RN's without any additional education.

However, on the flip side, I am truely tired of LPN education being discounted as being a year of merely learning skills and tasks, and that LPN's (or even ADN RN's for that matter according to some), only learn how to "do" something without really understanding why they are doing it.

I cringe every time someone proclaims that only one category of nurse (RN or BSN) is able to truely "critically think" (the oh so popular current buzzword in our profession and half of us don't even really understand what it means let alone actually do it in practice).

All I can say here is that nurses who have their mind dead set on believing that unions and BSN minimum entry are the answer to our profession's problems are living in a fantasy land.

I mention both because they seem to go hand in hand on so many threads here. I see it as pure irony.

Workers represented by a union screams blue collar by every way imaginable, yet alongside that, so many of us are preaching about bringing our profession up to respectable by the public's standards by making us all become BSN's.

I don't know about all of you, but the vast majority of my patients and their family members are not exactly doctors and lawyers.

I have a hard time believing that the 40-something daughter of my patient who works as a cashier at 7-11 is going to change her whole outlook and respect of nurses because we all got our BSN's.

The majority of hospitals barely give any type of additional compensation for nurses who have their BSN's and most BSN's report being paid either the same or close to the same as their ADN co-workers.

So how is it that so many here believe that if we all got our BSN's and made it the minimum standard of entry, that our salaries would magically go up and that hospital administrations would suddenly value us more highly?

Some of us BSN's paid our "dues' as LPN's too. Also, just having put in those four years looks good to a patient. Why not have every RN be a BSN and then patients wouldn't have to choose.

I dont' think the argument here is BSN or ADN

I think it's ONE ENTRY into the Profession. Many go on and on here about nurses uniting for the good of all of us. This is something we can do for ourselves all by ourselves. By writing to our congress men and women.

I think BSN is the only way to go. I think it will help every nurse out there.

As Linda has stated.

BTW the Nephrology Nurse Certification requires a BSN, 2 years of nephrology experience and 30 nephrology CEU's just to sit for the TEST.

Now when you put CNN behind your name it means something.