NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees

[Brian]

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse.

New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN certification-a step that critics worry could serve as a body blow to a profession already facing a severe shortage.

Under the state Board of Nursing proposal, RNs with associate's degrees would have to earn bachelor's degrees within 10 years, or their RN certifications would be downgraded to that of licensed practical nurse. That would make nursing somewhat like teaching in New York state; certified K-12 teachers need master's degrees or must obtain one within three years of starting a job. It would also add years and thousands of dollars to the difficulty of becoming an RN...

Full Article: http://www.rochesterdandc.com/news/0413BA3TIOG_news.shtml

[mattsmom81]

Canada I know has let LPN's stay LPN's (or equivalent)...they are their own 'profession' with their own practice act and standards.

I know this topic always brings on the argument 'grandfather the LPN's to RN too'. It never ends.

I DO have so say however that I believe a different training standard exists between the LPN and RN programs and I can't support grandfathering LPN's in the same way I would diploma and AD nurses....should we mandate a BSN by say 2010.

LPN's IMO should be their own advocates, govern their own profession apart from RN's...so they can lobby for and effect their own interests.

I attended 'RN school' and passed boards (one of the best scores in my state BTW)thus should never have that title questioned through the academic snobbery of some BSN proponents. To tell me I 'should' feel obligated to return to college and essentially complete/repeat 3-4 yrs to maintain what I already have EARNED is ludicrous and obnoxious, IMO.

I can't understand why someone would think THAT is OK.

[Q.]

The problem is that many of us wouldn't and won't just "accept" it. For me, the price that I paid in education is barely acceptable for the current benefits and trials that I have as a bedside Nurse...and I don't intend to leave the bedside.

Sure, but the question was hypothetical and, hypothetically, *I* would accept it.

As to the price you paid in education being worth the return in benefits, pay, etc. I hear you, which is precisely why I won't become a CNM. To me, the income between a CNM and an OB has too much of a gap for it to be "worth" it to me.

And those are the decisions we make. We weigh the requirements to be "this" over the return and we decide.

[Erin RN]

I still want to know what you propose to do with LPN's, those of you who are for the BSN-level requirement? Establishing one level- entry at BSN would mean you need to phase out and discontinue LPN nursing, period---or you risk losing solidarity. That is what we are basing this argument on right--solidarity? Keeping it all even/level at entry and in the process, gaining respect as professionals who ALL have professional degrees? So what of LPNs who do NOT have "professional degrees" ? I have yet to hear anyone address this issue. Anyone????

And a question to our Canadian nurses: do you feel your all-BSN requirement for nursing has increased solidarity there among nurses and do you feel the public, as well as other healthcare professionals, respect for nursing AS a profession due to this requirement? Has this been what it's cracked up to be for you RN's? I am curious.

This is from the Canadian nurses forum:

I also went straight to the US after grad and it was a great experience. I got my critical care program done for free and with pay . I worked in critical care immediantly and gained a ton of experience. When I came back to canada I had over 10 job offers.

I would encourage all new grads to go and get the experience and all the extra qualifications that canadian hospitals refuse to pay for.

In the US nurses are very well respected by all professions, the culture shock when I returned to cnada was bad. It took along time to break alot of doctors out of the habit of being disrespectful. The families are a perfect horror here after the US. In the US patients and families were deeply respectful. Here in canada nurses are not valued so expect a real shock when you come back. The other thing about working in the US is your nursing collegues are respectful too..they do not believe in eating their young there.

When I came back I couldn't believe the attitude of senior nurses...thats another thing..no unions..so nobody calling you junior.

I look back at my US experience as the best thing I ever did.

There are many comments such as this posted..It does not appear that having an all BSN RN workforce has benefitted them professionally, now does it..

[studentrn621]

this is from the canadian nurses forum:

i also went straight to the us after grad and it was a great experience. i got my critical care program done for free and with pay . i worked in critical care immediantly and gained a ton of experience. when i came back to canada i had over 10 job offers.

i would encourage all new grads to go and get the experience and all the extra qualifications that canadian hospitals refuse to pay for.

in the us nurses are very well respected by all professions, the culture shock when i returned to cnada was bad. it took along time to break alot of doctors out of the habit of being disrespectful. the families are a perfect horror here after the us. in the us patients and families were deeply respectful. here in canada nurses are not valued so expect a real shock when you come back. the other thing about working in the us is your nursing collegues are respectful too..they do not believe in eating their young there.

when i came back i couldn't believe the attitude of senior nurses...thats another thing..no unions..so nobody calling you junior.

i look back at my us experience as the best thing i ever did.

there are many comments such as this posted..it does not appear that having an all bsn rn workforce has benefitted them professionally, now does it..

when you look at the big picture, i still feel that the bachelor's is a nice start. individual circumstances should not outweigh the grand scheme of things.

[BBFRN, BSN, PhD]

I'm guessing the LPNs would be "downgraded" to Techs? And that would help the nursing shortage how?

[SmilingBluEyes]

I would just wonder how we differentiate/make this clear to a public who already cannot discern the difference between CNA's lab, RT , PT, etc and nursing as it is. A nurse is a nurse to them.......really.

Also, how, then, do we garner respect as "nurses" when we still will have an entry level of LPN (less than 2 years' education in most programs) to the field of "nursing"? Heck, I STILL want to see what doctors would do if we were all BSN-prepared. I doubt this would change things much. So, far, I don't see too much compelling from the all-BSN group to convince me that only BSN should be the entry to nursing. I don't think so. I just don't.

Another consideration I have brought up in previous BSN/ADN/Diploma threads: How do you propose to make BSN programs available to the current 60% who choose ADN entry? Many rural areas don't even HAVE BSN programs closer than 100 or more miles. Yes, you DO need to make it accessible to make it work. Already so many schools have 2-3 year or longer waiting lists!

SO--- how do you propose we do this? I doubt many community colleges have the $$$ or inclination to convert. Just cut em out in the face of a huge crisis shortage of available programs? This is another HUGE hurdle to overcome if we are to make the BSN the only means of entry to nursing, you know. So, like I said, in theory (which all sounds good in halls of academia), it works, but in PRACTICE, you can't make it so by saying it should be done. It would be a disaster without REAL and THOUGHTFUL planning first. We really need to "keep it real" folks.

One suggestion I have seen that IS more viable.....make it so that other baccalaureate degrees are acceptable when built with an ADN. I think THAT is a step in the right thinking direction. Anyone else with me?

[SmilingBluEyes]

Also I think all DIPLOMA grads should be waivered BSN requirement totally. I think there should be a means to build an MSN based upon experience and Diploma education, period. Their education preparation is different in structure, but NO LESS INTENSE. TO make them go back and start over to build a BSN is ridiculous and unfair, if you ask me.

[JMP]

I'm guessing the LPNs would be "downgraded" to Techs? And that would help the nursing shortage how?

In Ontario, Canada the RPN's (LPN's) now need to be graduates of two year diploma programs. Their title is the same. THey are still considered nurses.

[JMP]

The problem is that many of us wouldn't and won't just "accept" it. For me, the price that I paid in education is barely acceptable for the current benefits and trials that I have as a bedside Nurse...and I don't intend to leave the bedside.

If I had to attend a 4 year school (which in my area of the Country entailed about 6 times the tuition money, was not NLN approved, and had a much lower NCLEX pass rate), Nursing would not be "worth" the price. There are days now, that it is worth the price that I "paid" to be a nurse.

There are too many new grads these days that even with their BSNs are leaving the profession within one to two years. Obviously, many of them feel similarly.

I agree that there is a problem in the nursing profession. I have watched young new nurses come and go...... feeling that staying in this profession is just not worth it. Horizontal violence and dismay at working conditions are things that create burn out in nurses. Moral and ethical problems, lack of respect, feelings of oppression all lead to the burnout factor.

Many new nurses feel it is a requirement to stoop to the group mentality of horizontal violence, in order to be accepted and survive. With this thought in mind, I plead with people not to take part in the very things that are ripping our profession apart. Strength and professionalism come from each one of us, not a group spokesperson, but from within. If someone wants their degree, feels the need-desire.....support them. If someone feels otherwise, that is fine too....... we need to stop finding fault with those who want-desire something we don't.........

This is in no way meant for you Carolyladybelle-- I just started a message and then went on a rant!

[JMP]

I still want to know what you propose to do with LPN's, those of you who are for the BSN-level requirement? Establishing one level- entry at BSN would mean you need to phase out and discontinue LPN nursing, period---or you risk losing solidarity. That is what we are basing this argument on right--solidarity? Keeping it all even/level at entry and in the process, gaining respect as professionals who ALL have professional degrees? So what of LPNs who do NOT have "professional degrees" ? I have yet to hear anyone address this issue. Anyone????

And a question to our Canadian nurses: do you feel your all-BSN requirement for nursing has increased solidarity there among nurses and do you feel the public, as well as other healthcare professionals, respect for nursing AS a profession due to this requirement? Has this been what it's cracked up to be for you RN's? I am curious.

The degree to entry is new here. Some people are starting-finishing their degrees....others not. Solidarity -- well solidarity has a long way to go. I think respect comes from who you are and how you act as a professional. I know some doctors who are well educated but not respected.

Respect for nursing is coming.....also has a long way to go. It is going to take some time and old role models will have to fade.

Many members of the public still see nurses as the doctors "handmaidens"... some doctors still see us this way......which is why I work in ICU..... the perception and automonomy are much different from other areas.

In general I think BSN as entry is a good thing. I feel education is a good thing. I find now that I am close to finishing my BSN I have a better idea of things I had not considered before...... such as the history of nursing, what my philosophy of nursing is, etc.

[caroladybelle, BSN, RN]

I agree that there is a problem in the nursing profession. I have watched young new nurses come and go...... feeling that staying in this profession is just not worth it. Horizontal violence and dismay at working conditions are things that create burn out in nurses. Moral and ethical problems, lack of respect, feelings of oppression all lead to the burnout factor.

Many new nurses feel it is a requirement to stoop to the group mentality of horizontal violence, in order to be accepted and survive. With this thought in mind, I plead with people not to take part in the very things that are ripping our profession apart. Strength and professionalism come from each one of us, not a group spokesperson, but from within. If someone wants their degree, feels the need-desire.....support them. If someone feels otherwise, that is fine too....... we need to stop finding fault with those who want-desire something we don't.........

This is in no way meant for you Carolyladybelle-- I just started a message and then went on a rant!

My problems with the profession have nothing to do with horizontal violence, which I have rarely experienced. My issues have more to do with bad behavior of our patients, MDs and just plain lousy management from (some)NMs and much of the higher ups.

And interestingly, most of those individuals have a Bachelor's degree or higher. Yet, it does not seem to make them more capable in healthcare arena, not one whit.

[fergus51]

I still want to know what you propose to do with LPN's, those of you who are for the BSN-level requirement? Establishing one level- entry at BSN would mean you need to phase out and discontinue LPN nursing, period---or you risk losing solidarity. That is what we are basing this argument on right--solidarity? Keeping it all even/level at entry and in the process, gaining respect as professionals who ALL have professional degrees? So what of LPNs who do NOT have "professional degrees" ? I have yet to hear anyone address this issue. Anyone????

And a question to our Canadian nurses: do you feel your all-BSN requirement for nursing has increased solidarity there among nurses and do you feel the public, as well as other healthcare professionals, respect for nursing AS a profession due to this requirement? Has this been what it's cracked up to be for you RN's? I am curious.

I can already see things improving among the new nurses who all take the same type of schooling. No more debates over who is better. It's still new, so it will take time, but I don't regret it at all. They should have done it here years ago because it was so simple.

LPNs are their own profession here. They set their own educational requirements and it has nothing to do with RNs. They changed their training in Ontario, but not in BC as far as I know. That's their business.

btw, Erin RN I have also lived and worked in both countries and experienced some crap in both countries. The BSN wasn't touted as the end solution for every problem in nursing.