NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees

[Brian]

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse.

New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN certification-a step that critics worry could serve as a body blow to a profession already facing a severe shortage.

Under the state Board of Nursing proposal, RNs with associate's degrees would have to earn bachelor's degrees within 10 years, or their RN certifications would be downgraded to that of licensed practical nurse. That would make nursing somewhat like teaching in New York state; certified K-12 teachers need master's degrees or must obtain one within three years of starting a job. It would also add years and thousands of dollars to the difficulty of becoming an RN...

Full Article: http://www.rochesterdandc.com/news/0413BA3TIOG_news.shtml

[LadyT618, MSN, APRN, NP]

I agree that the educational disparities cause some of the rifts and lack of solidarity in nursing. I support BSN as entry level for RN's if ONLY for solidarity. However, I suspect that as soon as the BSN is mandated, the MSN snobs will start the "I'm better than you' stuff. It seems to be engrained in this culture of nursing.

I am required to do 100 hrs of education to renew my CCRN credential and demonstrate continued competency in my field of practice. I do NOT disdain education. But I DO disdain those who would try to force me to return to school at age 50...to repeat 90% of my coursework plus.....I've already paid those dues.

It will be interesting to see the response of AD and Diploma nurses if return to school is ever mandated. It will be the last straw for this nurse.

You know, I wasn't going to reply, but the one thing I did think about and this post kinda deals with is the 50+ crowd coming into nursing. Some of these people just want to get their ADN, become an RN and work their very best to be the best nurse they can be. My gripe with the whole thing is, after 10 years or so, these people really may not want to return to school....they may be happy where they are. I don't appreciate the fact that a registered nurse, who busted their butt to pass those boards, will be demoted if they refuse to go for their BSN in those 10 years. Talk about lack of solidarity and disrespect. Just another take on the whole thing. In my opinion, they haven't seen nursing shortage yet, if they allow this to happen.

It's not to say ADN and diploma nurses are against higher education, that's a wrong way to look at it. Who would be actually against receiving a higher education at the expense of their employer? But let's get real. Who is to say who is the so called "better" nurse? Like igflamini said, if they decide BSN is the only thing good enough to have to enter the nursing field, then they really need to continue on that track and make MSN a requirement for managerial positions, and force all those BSN-holding supervisors to get their MSN, since people with higher education are better at being in "position."

JMO.

[Q.]

Some of these people just want to get their ADN, become an RN and work their very best to be the best nurse they can be. My gripe with the whole thing is, after 10 years or so, these people really may not want to return to school....they may be happy where they are. I don't appreciate the fact that a registered nurse, who busted their butt to pass those boards, will be demoted if they refuse to go for their BSN in those 10 years. Talk about lack of solidarity and disrespect. Just another take on the whole thing.

The thing that makes this difficult is the whole retrospective thing about it; we already have nurses who exist without what would be the minimum requirement.

But at the same time, I never understood the rationale of just being "happy" with an ADN. To me, "happiness" and requirements for a profession are two totally separate concepts independent of one another.

Not all docs had to have medical school as we see it now. But they went and changed it and that profession survived - in fact, they see higher pay and higher respect than they did before this change. I guess I only see good things for nursing if a Bachelor's degree is mandated.

[LadyT618, MSN, APRN, NP]

The thing that makes this difficult is the whole retrospective thing about it; we already have nurses who exist without what would be the minimum requirement.

But at the same time, I never understood the rationale of just being "happy" with an ADN. To me, "happiness" and requirements for a profession are two totally separate concepts independent of one another.

Not all docs had to have medical school as we see it now. But they went and changed it and that profession survived - in fact, they see higher pay and higher respect than they did before this change. I guess I only see good things for nursing if a Bachelor's degree is mandated.

Why stop at mandating requriements for entry-level nursing? Keep on going for requirements for supervisors, they should probably have MSNs and instructors in nursing schools should have PhDs or the equivalent and also, teaching experience. Don't just stop at entry-level......All levels should require a certain level of education.

[Erin RN]

.

the accelerated bsn program has to complete 128 credit hours to convey the bsn vs. 60-64 credit hours for adn. are you saying that these students took twice as many classes and learned less?

what about the difficulty of the classes? i have taken classes at a university and several community colleges, and the difference in the quality and difficulty of courses at a university vs. a community college is noticeable.

i almost fell asleep during the community college courses, because there was almost no academic rigor to the courses. the grading was easy, there were few writing assignments and they were short, and the tests required almost no critical thinking the answers to the tests were almost obvious. i think that it is obvious that the bsn education is far superior to the adn education.

i think it is all about which school you are attending. i graduated from cc with 93 credit hours and a 3.9 cumm gpa with my adn since that time i have taken another 12 credit hours at the university level with a 4.0 gpa. i actually found that the classes i took from the university were much less demanding than those i took for the adn...

[BBFRN, BSN, PhD]

My point exactly. Or under NY requirements, we could get a Masters in basketweaving so we can all become Nurse Managers.

Why stop at mandating requriements for entry-level nursing? Keep on going for requirements for supervisors, they should probably have MSNs and instructors in nursing schools should have PhDs or the equivalent and also, teaching experience. Don't just stop at entry-level......All levels should require a certain level of education.

[PamRNC]

Here's a couple of ideas/opinions

Infinite Diversity Infinite Combination or Out of Many, One People

Nursing is a profession that has developed its own research base, code of ethics, professional conduct and met a variety of other "requirements" that make a "profession." Nursing has largely been a "woman's" profession. Women historically had and sometimes still have difficulties progressing in most professions due to "glass ceilings," "old boys' club," and family responsibilities, ie. taking time off from work for marriage, children, and eldercare. Economy, politics and finances are affecting our working environment just as much.

Nursing's response to these roadblocks has been to adapt. Hence the creation of flex shift, per diem, agency and travel nurses. Necessity is the mother of invention after all. Educational institutions have also adapted. The increasing variety of ways to prepare someone to take the boards and receive the RN license.

The arguments presented about one piece of paper being better than another are really a moot argument at the bedside. All our education prepares us for "what should be", and the board licensing exam states that "we are safe to practice." Experience, however, shows us how things really are. Confirmation of experience should be more important to the profession as a whole.

Experience teaches as much and sometimes more than classroom didactic. Experience does not preclude learning in a structured setting, it embraces it as another form of experience. Nurses should not have to be forced to do. This is our profession, our careers and our lives. Who is it that doesn't treat RNs as professionals? What exactly is involved in treating someone like a professional? I'd really like to know. If I've ever been treated unprofessionally, it has usually been from someone who prefers to behave unprofessionally (their problem, not mine).

Why can't we decide that for our profession it is OK, perfectly normal and completely professional to have different entry-levels of educational preparation? After all, as it was mentioned in other posts, if we're going to demand and entry-level standard, then it should affect other levels. This type of thinking leads to an all-or-none and very rigid system. I don't think it sounds quite right, not the way to go for our profession.

[Q.]

Why stop at mandating requriements for entry-level nursing? Keep on going for requirements for supervisors, they should probably have MSNs and instructors in nursing schools should have PhDs or the equivalent and also, teaching experience. Don't just stop at entry-level......All levels should require a certain level of education.

Do you not think that this goes on already to a certain extent? Educator positions in the hospital setting state "Master's degree preferred." To be an Advanced Practice nurse, a Master's is required. To be an NP, to be a CNM, to be a CNS, a Master's is required. Certainly to teach in a university setting, a Master's is required. To become a professor of ANY sort, a Ph.D is required. I've seen director-level positions for nursing with a Ph.D as a requirement for hire.

I'm all for it mandating requirements every step of the way. You want to manage people? Darn straight you better have your Bachelor's degree. You want to be an Advanced Practice nurse? Yup - you best have your Master's. I'd be the first to sign the dotted line for such straight-laced, no qualms or questions requirements and standards.

But seeing as the profession is still dabbling with entry-level practice, let's get that ball rolling first before taking on the whole profession.

[TristateRN]

Before I read this thread today, I had been catching up on reading the Nurse Spectrum magazines. Since I get the NJ/NY area, I noticed alot of the employment ads for NY hospitals for Staff RN required BSN, which I thought was odd. But after reading this thread it makes perfect sense. I believe they are definitely on the road to making BSN the entry for requirement. I'm not too sure, if they will end up requiring everyone to go back, but I've learned to never say never. Shortage or no shortage laws can be made that we would have never dreamed possible. My hospital that I attend nursing school, is in the process of bring over 40 international students to make up for the nurses they lost when they got rid of their Baylor program. They are bringing some in monthly and they are working as nurse residents until they pass their boards. I'm sure the nurses in Canada didn't believe that the BSN requirement would really happen when they first heard rumors of it, but IT DID! I think more time should be spent on nurses trying to come together to make plans for fighting for grandfather rights instead of which program is better, because if it is decided that BSN will be required all the bickering is really a total waste.

[cenote]

I'm 53 years young, have a bachelor's degree (1987) from a state university (3.79 average) and some post graduate work towards my MBA but its not in the sciences. When I decided to change my career and chose nursing, I went for the "2" year ADN. Even with 145 hours of college courses, it took me a full year to get the pre-requisites necessary to get into nursing school. So, you can toss the 2 year thing in the trash. It doesn't exist, at least not in any state I know of at this time. While the powers that be still choose to call it a 2 year degree (I could explain why but it would take too long to do so), it actually requires nearly 4 years to achieve. Not long enough?

As far as what degree makes a better nurse, I chose not to join in that argument. But, the argument goes that the BSN degree makes one better rounded with greater credentials as a professional. In that vein, can someone answer this question.

Why then would I (or anyone else for that matter) with a previous degree not be considered educated enough to be considered a professional nurse? Certainly, with 5 + years of college and a degree, I should get some recognition. But THIS IS NOT THE CASE. So, they will want me to go back and get another year of What? For what?

In my opinion any requirement for a BSN is a snobbishness born of a desire for elitism. We need good dedicated nurses. PERIOD. WE need support from the State Boards of Nursing on issues that really affect patients, like mandated safe ratios!

When these arguments re BSN vs ADN start, the real issues of preserving life and limb and patient advocacy get pushed aside. Forshame on the Boards. Rise up.

NEW YORK NURSES RISE UP AND WRITE! ORGANIZE AGAINST THIS TYRANNY.

MAKE YOUR VOICE COUNT FOR WHAT IS IMPORTANT.

GOD BLESS EVERYONE.

[caroladybelle, BSN, RN]

Before I read this thread today, I had been catching up on reading the Nurse Spectrum magazines. Since I get the NJ/NY area, I noticed alot of the employment ads for NY hospitals for Staff RN required BSN, which I thought was odd. But after reading this thread it makes perfect sense. I believe they are definitely on the road to making BSN the entry for requirement.

My hospital that I attend nursing school, is in the process of bring over 40 international students to make up for the nurses they lost when they got rid of their Baylor program. They are bringing some in monthly and they are working as nurse residents until they pass their boards. I'm sure the nurses in Canada didn't believe that the BSN requirement would really happen when they first heard rumors of it, but IT DID!

I work in NYC at a hospital that is ranked consistantly in the top 15 nationwide. I am a traveler. I have had hospitals work to keep me here, despite my ADN.

Two hospitals in the area that "require" a BSN are considered among the worst facilities in the area. No, Thank You, I think that I will be happy to pass on those.

As far as internationals, if they can speak the language adequately, more power to them. But after hearing the patient complaints on not being able to understand the nurse. Well, I am not that impressed.

The USA has been talking about an all BSN nursing rule for over 50 years. And the USA isn't Canada. The one state that required a BSN (one of the few without a dire shortage has since rescinded it due to staffing problems.

I believe an all RN rule when I see it. And I will be retiring then, ya'll.

[orrnlori, RN]

I'm 53 years young, have a bachelor's degree (1987) from a state university (3.79 average) and some post graduate work towards my MBA but its not in the sciences. When I decided to change my career and chose nursing, I went for the "2" year ADN. Even with 145 hours of college courses, it took me a full year to get the pre-requisites necessary to get into nursing school. So, you can toss the 2 year thing in the trash. It doesn't exist, at least not in any state I know of at this time. While the powers that be still choose to call it a 2 year degree (I could explain why but it would take too long to do so), it actually requires nearly 4 years to achieve. Not long enough?

As far as what degree makes a better nurse, I chose not to join in that argument. But, the argument goes that the BSN degree makes one better rounded with greater credentials as a professional. In that vein, can someone answer this question.

Why then would I (or anyone else for that matter) with a previous degree not be considered educated enough to be considered a professional nurse? Certainly, with 5 + years of college and a degree, I should get some recognition. But THIS IS NOT THE CASE. So, they will want me to go back and get another year of What? For what?

In my opinion any requirement for a BSN is a snobbishness born of a desire for elitism. We need good dedicated nurses. PERIOD. WE need support from the State Boards of Nursing on issues that really affect patients, like mandated safe ratios!

When these arguments re BSN vs ADN start, the real issues of preserving life and limb and patient advocacy get pushed aside. Forshame on the Boards. Rise up.

NEW YORK NURSES RISE UP AND WRITE! ORGANIZE AGAINST THIS TYRANNY.

MAKE YOUR VOICE COUNT FOR WHAT IS IMPORTANT.

GOD BLESS EVERYONE.

Again, excellent post. I agree. Why is it that only the education in a nursing bachelor's degree valid? There's a multitude of degrees and higher college education (and that's what the most recent posters for the BSN have been arguing, the need for education) that are considered non-existent and/or inferior? Why is it that the 4 years it took anyone to get their ADN going full time considered a 2 year degree? I've read the report to the State of New York by those who have studied the issue, actually several reports and recommendations. Even they understand the aging of the nursing staff population and realize the pitfalls of making the BSN the gold standard and what it will do to the availability of nurses for the care that will be needed in the next 20 years as the babyboomers retire.

[Energizer Bunny]

Off topic and I apologize, but I'm wondering what CNM2B means? (her screen name, her initials; what do they stand for).

I'm reading it as Certified Nurse Midwife To Be. Is that correct?

If so, that would be an interesting twist to the debate from an outside observer.

Suzy..that is what my screen name means, but I am questioning whether or not it is going to be worth it to go that far with my education or even if it is really what I want to do anymore.

I'm not really an outside observer because right now I'm just struggling to pay for my education to get my ADN (and it is by no means only a 2 year process here either, for those of you that brought that up). I have every intention of going on to get my BSN but will be unable to do it immediately because of family concerns that are pressuring me to hurry up and get school done and get to work. I will have to go back gradually and probably not for a couple years after I graduate. At this point, the Master's required for midwifery seems a very distant dream.........