Education of nurses

Nursing Students ADN/BSN

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Now I know this may upset some but...

I think that all nurses should be BSN prepared at minimum, and all LPN, ASN, and diploma programs should be eradicated.

My reasoning for this? How many other fields can say they are "professionals" with less than an associate degree? Education is never a bad thing and the more education one has, the better. I believe nurses would be seen as more professional, and there would be less people trying to get into the field as a "fast and easy way to make decent money" as many nursing programs advertise. Perhaps then, nurses would see better wages and easier opportunites to find employment.

I would love to hear what others think on this topic. I turly hope this goes into effect in the near future!

Specializes in Gerontology, Med surg, Home Health.
Same could be said about the education I'm receiving now. 20 years it will be also obsolete.
I graduated in 1982 from a diploma program one thing we learned quickly was critical thinking skills....a skill that will NEVER be obsolete. We also learned to keep learning throughout our careers. I graduated with the skill to run a unit. I have a Bachelor's degree in English and frankly never saw the point of getting another bachelor degree.I'd put my knowledge,skills, and PROFESSIONALISM up against anyone else's...ADN or BSN.

The BSN level of education goes beyond the clinical education and introduces concepts such as statistics, economics, leadership, research, and the like. These "fluff" classes help to develop you professionally, they allow you to view nursing in a more global manner.

I learned (and more importantly learned to apply) those concepts in my ADN program.

Tell me, how does viewing nursing an a more "global" manner enhance bedside nursing?

Please, give me an practical application of the concept in bedside nursing. My BSN instructors couldn't do it yet it was one of the buzz words/phrases in their glossy program brochure.

If you received a quality education you should have walked away from the program with some concept of leadership, organizational structure, professional duty, maybe some nursing history, the ability to read a study and understand the statistical significance, and the ability to understand why education is important.

I walked INTO my BSN program with all of those skills as I had walked OUT of my AND program with them 17 years earlier.

And since it will probably come up...I graduated from a community college in the Pac NW in 1990 that was no different than any other CC program in the state. My BSN came from a well regarded college, where I graduated with a near 4.0. While it's certainly possible I missed the "point" of my BSN program or attended a less than great school, the multiple MSN programs I've been accepted into make me inclined to disagree.

I do agree that standardized education and a standardized level of entry needs to be defined but at this point believe that good ADN programs would fill that need more than adequately. There are many professions (and I'm not using the lay term) for which an Associates is entry level. I don't believe making the BSN the standard for entry does anything but create additional financial burden for those who want to enter the field. Placing nursing education out of reach of the 'masses' and limits the supply, thereby creating some job security for already working nurses, then again, perhaps that is the point.

That is an interesting point kids...one that I hadn't thought of ...

"Placing nursing education out of reach of the 'masses' and limits the supply, thereby creating some job security for already working nurses, then again, perhaps that is the point."

Just because those that would make money from people getting into nursing schools by advertising a current nursing shortage, does not mean that it is true. Though I don't really think that the average nurse has anything to do with pushing this agenda of limiting the supply of nurses, I wonder who may be direct benefits of this? The only ones that seem to benefit would be the schools. I do not believe that an ADN with a few years under her belt does not know any less than a BSN and after paying so much more for their degrees, a BSN doesn't earn all that much more than an ADN. So what is the point?

It would seem that the average nurse would be better to fight for better ratios that put patients at less risk and their nursing license at less risk than to force this issue. What happens when all these new grads that can't find jobs decide to NOT be a nurse because they can't wait for healthcare facilities to hire. That is when the true nursing shortage will kick in hard...especially when the aging boomers begin to retire enmasse. The schools will have burnt out their credibility with the college age kids to become nurses after a few dozen of their buddies start telling their stories of the years of sacrifice to become a BSN and all the debt they are saddled with while being unable to procure a job to repay these loans. We may just have to go back and allow (or even beg by that time) for kids to go to school to get their LPN or ADN.

Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
That is an interesting point kids...one that I hadn't thought of ...

"Placing nursing education out of reach of the 'masses' and limits the supply, thereby creating some job security for already working nurses, then again, perhaps that is the point."

Just because those that would make money from people getting into nursing schools by advertising a current nursing shortage, does not mean that it is true. Though I don't really think that the average nurse has anything to do with pushing this agenda of limiting the supply of nurses, I wonder who may be direct benefits of this? The only ones that seem to benefit would be the schools. I do not believe that an ADN with a few years under her belt does not know any less than a BSN and after paying so much more for their degrees, a BSN doesn't earn all that much more than an ADN. So what is the point?

It would seem that the average nurse would be better to fight for better ratios that put patients at less risk and their nursing license at less risk than to force this issue. What happens when all these new grads that can't find jobs decide to NOT be a nurse because they can't wait for healthcare facilities to hire. That is when the true nursing shortage will kick in hard...especially when the aging boomers begin to retire enmasse. The schools will have burnt out their credibility with the college age kids to become nurses after a few dozen of their buddies start telling their stories of the years of sacrifice to become a BSN and all the debt they are saddled with while being unable to procure a job to repay these loans. We may just have to go back and allow (or even beg by that time) for kids to go to school to get their LPN or ADN.

It's what lead to the last "shortage". Back in the late 80's during the Dot.com crash. All those who rushed into the tech world to make their millions and found themselves jobless.....rushed into nursing. Hospitals laid off jobs were scarce. Eventually they moved on and people stopped going to school to graduate and have no job.

I do believe this situation is unprecedented as the whole economy is in dire trouble. Never since the Great Depression has there been such economic strife. The masses have folded to the profession, saturated the market, dropped demand. The hospitals can now do as they wish, pay what they wish, and spoil all that we worked fro all these years to make nursing a worthy rpofession....financially. I came out of school making $3.25/hr. but the benefits were great. We were treated respectfully.

So who is benefiting from this? They very hospitals who want "only" certain graduates now for minimal pay or that your have to pay them for the "intership/residency" to get properly trained.........when they have sobbed to the government about the "nursing crisis" and "something needed to be done" to prevent a catastrophe!!! catastrophe my foot....they wanted to stop they respectable pay that nurses had finally achieved.....who's benefitting now???

Now it is difficult to get a full time job with any benefits and a pension is essentially non existent......the tide will turn. With the promise of the "big money" all the push has been for these advanced degrees which I believe have been promoted by hospitals and insurance companies to get the same or better services for less money than the MDs....this market will saturate soon as well.......and we will be back at square one. I was told that diploma schools were going to be outlawed when I went to school in 1978, and it hasn't happened yet.

I agree lockport, this too shall pass......the hole that us boomers will have to leave because nature will take it's course and we will eventually have no choice but to die...... will not be cured by the plethora of nurses now for they will have moved on.........and the cycle begins again...........only time will tell.

Specializes in MedSurg, OR, Cardiac step down.
Don't hold your breath, it will never happen.

it's already happening, by the hospitals that are hiring BSN nurses only....

Specializes in Oncology.
it's already happening, by the hospitals that are hiring BSN nurses only....

Yes, I agree. I am an ADN nurse that just graduated with a BSN. I was pretty much pushed into getting my BSN because I couldn't get into acute care without it. I know people are saying that's only in certain areas of the country, but I applied in many states. Having an ADN was about akin to leprosy, despite prior experience, 4.0, honors, etc. For that reason, I do think it would be better to have a standard entry point for nursing--for the future. No one's license should be taken away, but we should head that direction for new nurses. It is sad and disheartening to work your butt off in nursing school and get good grades, only to be told repeatedly that your degree is not good enough.

I do understand and agree with what some nurses are saying on here... Experience is really so much more useful than classroom education. I know some really smart diploma and ADN nurses and some really dumb BSN and MSN's! I think that goes for all professions, though.

Specializes in Peds Homecare.

Just an FYI, a local hospital for a while was claiming bragging rites, because they were becoming a magnet hospital. My mother fell down on Monday and fractured her hip. She was admitted to the above hospital. When she was given a room on a floor , as well as seeing RN's, guess what else I saw on name badges passing meds, doing admissions..............LPN's! The next day my dad and I were eating lunch in the cafeteria and I struck up a conversation with a staff member. I said I was going to share our conversation on allnurses. I asked about the "Magnet" status. She told me they lost it, the all BSN THING WAS UNATTAINABLE! LPN's are hired and utilized all the time all over the hospital. I have mentioned my area many times on allnurses. This hospital is in Syracuse, NY. When classes graduate, yes, new grads, they get a write up in our local paper. The last article said, and I quote, "All of us have jobs." This is the nursing school affliated with the hospital my mom was in. ADN, LPN, BSN, jobs are all plentiful in Syracuse, NY. We have St. Joseph's, Crouse Irving, Upstate Medical Center, and Community General, which is now affliated with Upstate. Upstate is a Level 1 Trauma Center. So my point is, if you need a job, try Syracuse, NY, and apply to one of the hospitals here. They even advertize for GN's. I applaud you if you have a BSN, but I think we all have room for each other, and none of us should be done away with.

If you look at curricula of ADN/ASN and diploma programs, does your assertion that they are "98% clinical" hold true?

My assertion of 98% was an overreaching observation meant to illustrate a point, not be a literal translation of academic program construction. I would assert however that the priority in ADN and diploma programs is the training of a competent clinical nurse. Other education courses may be present but the vast majority, I am willing to say at least >80% of the classes, are designed to improve clinical practice directly.

"Minimally functional clinical nurse"? Yeah, that's right. I'm just an automaton who says "Yes, Doctor," then toddles off to perform the task. I don't think about the hows, whys and wherefores.

We did learn nursing history, including all those theorists like Jean Watson, Hildegard Peplau, etc. We learned about professional ethics. We had a leadership rotation at the end of our senior year when we were expected to act as a staff nurse, with all the responsibilities and the same patient load as other staff. We learned that education is important.

If my education was so lacking, why was I able to be certified in 5 different specialties over the course of my career?

I'm very proud to have graduated from a highly regarded diploma program. Years ago, docs would say they could tell when a nurse had graduated from "XYZ program," because they were head and shoulders above the other programs.

Please do not take offense from the "minimally competent nurse" statement, it was not meant as an insult. Most programs have the primary goal of educating students to pass NCLEX, that is in fact the entire point is it not? The NCLEX is not a test designed to identify excellent or even good nurses, it's only function is to assess if an applicant is minimally competent.

I am sure you did learn some history and had some leadership education in your ADN or diploma program, are you saying that you received an equal amount of education in your ADN/diploma as you did in your BSN program?

I was intubating patients and drawing abgs without a BSN in the 1980"s.....The degree dose not delegate what you can do until you get into advanced degrees. Paramedics intubate. The ability/skill to intubate is governed not by the state nurse practice acts but by facility policy and job description. When I think of the stuff I did as a flight nurse with on the job training.....I Am Honored to have had such an opportunity and education on the job. A 12 lead EKG doesn't require a college degree. I have lived through this acceleration of bedside practice to the responsibilities that are now required. It has been an amazing ride and career. As technology has grown so has the practice of nursing......we had to keep up to care for these patients that were receiving such complicated treatments and interventions.

Many patients that have been saved by TPA/thrombolytics were saved by nurses that probably didn't have a BSN. Those first open hearts were cared for diploma nurses.I remember the first time I hung the new drug Tridil (IV nitro).....we were petrified to drop it for fear it would blowup.....;) Intra-arterial streptokinase. Intracoronary urokinase. angioplasty......were all probably performed by nurses without their BSN. I had seen the eradication of the common diagnosis of Ventricular aneurysm due to the aggressive intervention of cardiology and the acute MI. I've seen the beginning of the ck-mb bands to troponin and BNP. I remember when we kept acute MI's on bedrest for days. and the were hospitalized for weeks. Many of these patient were sucessfully cared for by nurses that probably didn't have their BSN.

You need to know where you have been to know where you are going.......:paw:

My statement was a response to a suggestion that the nursing SOP has been somewhat limited as of late, I am glad that you agree with me.

As I have stated before, a BSN does not, nor was it designed to, make a nurse a better CLINICAL nurse. There are two educational programs, clinical and professional. The BSN program is longer because it adds more of the professional classes to the traditional ADN programs, that is all. Ceteris paribus, a BSN graduate and a ADN graduate have about the same CLINICAL education. When it comes to the professional skills, the BSN graduate has the advantage.

I learned (and more importantly learned to apply) those concepts in my ADN program.

Tell me, how does viewing nursing an a more "global" manner enhance bedside nursing?

Please, give me an practical application of the concept in bedside nursing. My BSN instructors couldn't do it yet it was one of the buzz words/phrases in their glossy program brochure.

I walked INTO my BSN program with all of those skills as I had walked OUT of my AND program with them 17 years earlier.

And since it will probably come up...I graduated from a community college in the Pac NW in 1990 that was no different than any other CC program in the state. My BSN came from a well regarded college, where I graduated with a near 4.0. While it's certainly possible I missed the "point" of my BSN program or attended a less than great school, the multiple MSN programs I've been accepted into make me inclined to disagree.

I do agree that standardized education and a standardized level of entry needs to be defined but at this point believe that good ADN programs would fill that need more than adequately. There are many professions (and I'm not using the lay term) for which an Associates is entry level. I don't believe making the BSN the standard for entry does anything but create additional financial burden for those who want to enter the field. Placing nursing education out of reach of the 'masses' and limits the supply, thereby creating some job security for already working nurses, then again, perhaps that is the point.

Like I have said before, BSN programs are not goal orientated to improve CLINICAL performance, they are designed to improve PROFESSIONAL performance.

I apologize that your BSN program did not provide you with any useful skills, it must have been boring for you.

When considering expense I would strongly advise you to look at the statistics educational program length, how long it actually takes a student to finish the program. Traditional ADN programs are anywhere from 16 to 24 months long, plus an additional 1 to 2 years of prerequisite courses. In my area of the country the average time it takes to complete an ADN is 4-5 years when prerequisites are included. A traditional BSN program take 4-5 years to complete in comparison.

Specializes in Neurosciences, cardiac, critical care.
Can I ask where you received your diploma? I'm always curious to find out where these facilities are, I think it is actually pretty neat.

Your idea has been proposed before but the problem is that there currently are not enough BSN programs to put out enough RNs to meet demand. The problem is not that programs do not want to open to meet demand but there simply are not enough instructors nor clinical sites. The NLN maintains statistics on this and they are very interesting.

If you think about it, you need someone with a great deal of education and experience to adequately train nurses. Those nurses that meet the criteria are worth a ton of money in the non-academic world, it is not easy to recruit someone to take a pay cut.

Instead of making a hard deadline the powers that be are increasing funding and grants to BSN level programs to help them recruit and develop larger nursing programs. The idea is to make a slow transition using market incentives such as Magnet to increase the demand for BSN nurses and slowly build up the BSN programs to cope. If the plan works well no one will even see the transition, just one day they will looking around and not see any ASN nurses.

This sounds spot-on from my experiences.

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