Education of nurses

[PCU_RN9]

Now I know this may upset some but...

I think that all nurses should be BSN prepared at minimum, and all LPN, ASN, and diploma programs should be eradicated.

My reasoning for this? How many other fields can say they are "professionals" with less than an associate degree? Education is never a bad thing and the more education one has, the better. I believe nurses would be seen as more professional, and there would be less people trying to get into the field as a "fast and easy way to make decent money" as many nursing programs advertise. Perhaps then, nurses would see better wages and easier opportunites to find employment.

I would love to hear what others think on this topic. I turly hope this goes into effect in the near future!

[Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN]

Oh goody.....we get to discuss this subject again... .(Sorry for the sarcasm)

This has been an argument when I started school 36 years ago. The diploma nurses didn't think we had enough "clinical time" to survive nursing. We weren't "prepared" as nurses. As long as there are multi levels of entry level into nursing there will be territorial boasting about who's degree is bigger....I mean better than the other. When I went to school ASN/ADN programs were brand new and we the top educated available and BSN got you your advanced degree Nurse Practitioner. The diploma nurses thought we we lacking.

This is one of those never ending subjects that pop up every time a new nursing class starts and hears the propaganda boasting the heralds of the BSN.

These "studies" that patients do better with a BSN nurse are run by the very educators who are presently lying to students that there is a nursing shortage.....and push the students into thousands of dollars of debt and then there are no jobs when they graduate. Just a way of perpetuating a little job security for themselves.

Any changes to the educational requirements will grandfather nurses already licensed. I have met many over educated idiots that can fight their way out of a paper bag. I do agree however that in this present job climate it is probably the prudent thing to do to get the BSN as the market is tight and jobs are slim pickings. The one with higher education will get hired first in some areas of the country.......as the senior nurses that were there to mentor them are being laid off.

When this all turns around again, and it will........even those ASN/ADN nurses will be right next to those BSN nurses wiping the same patients behind for the same amount of money. With everyone rushing off for the advance degrees and the "big money" the promise...the bedside nurse will be back in demand sooner rather than later

I mean this in the nicest way.......I was an ASN grad.

Just my

[sapphire18]

I see this all the time: "My LPN/ADN/whatever program was SO much more difficult than my BSN program"...maybe that's because you already have the basics down if you already hold a nursing degree. BSNs have all the same education of an ADN- plus more. I agree that nursing should be a bachelor degree minimum, but that all current nurses would be grandfathered in. LPNs are a whole different argument- they serve a different function and it would be short-sighted to get rid of that role.

[Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN]

I can understand where you are coming from but unfortunately I think you missed the point of a BSN. What I think most nurses miss is that nursing education is divided into two very distinct areas of study; clinical education and professional development.

The ASN, or diploma for that matter, is designed to be 98% clinical education. These degrees are designed to build you into a minimally functional clinical nurse. If all that was expected of the professional nurse was to be a straight forward bedside nurse then that would be enough.

The BSN level of education goes beyond the clinical education and introduces concepts such as statistics, economics, leadership, research, and the like. These "fluff" classes help to develop you professionally, they allow you to view nursing in a more global manner. If you received a quality education you should have walked away from the program with some concept of leadership, organizational structure, professional duty, maybe some nursing history, the ability to read a study and understand the statistical significance, and the ability to understand why education is important.

Although some tasks in nursing have been refocused and some tasks taken away altogether our overall scope of practice has grown by leaps and bounds. Nursing is moving away somewhat from the generalists but that doesn't mean that tasks are being taken away. In reality nurses are being trained into many different specialties instead. Nurses still do intubate in many states, I still get my own ABGs, and I can get my own 12 lead if I wanted to.

You might not think that higher educational improves a nurse's performance but the studies prove that it actually does make a difference.

I was intubating patients and drawing abgs without a BSN in the 1980"s.....The degree dose not delegate what you can do until you get into advanced degrees. Paramedics intubate. The ability/skill to intubate is governed not by the state nurse practice acts but by facility policy and job description. When I think of the stuff I did as a flight nurse with on the job training.....I Am Honored to have had such an opportunity and education on the job. A 12 lead EKG doesn't require a college degree. I have lived through this acceleration of bedside practice to the responsibilities that are now required. It has been an amazing ride and career. As technology has grown so has the practice of nursing......we had to keep up to care for these patients that were receiving such complicated treatments and interventions.

Many patients that have been saved by TPA/thrombolytics were saved by nurses that probably didn't have a BSN. Those first open hearts were cared for diploma nurses.I remember the first time I hung the new drug Tridil (IV nitro).....we were petrified to drop it for fear it would blowup..... Intra-arterial streptokinase. Intracoronary urokinase. angioplasty......were all probably performed by nurses without their BSN. I had seen the eradication of the common diagnosis of Ventricular aneurysm due to the aggressive intervention of cardiology and the acute MI. I've seen the beginning of the ck-mb bands to troponin and BNP. I remember when we kept acute MI's on bedrest for days. and the were hospitalized for weeks. Many of these patient were sucessfully cared for by nurses that probably didn't have their BSN.

You need to know where you have been to know where you are going.......:paw:

[LockportRN]

i suspect that hospitals that are requiring nurses to go back to complete their bsns are really targeting older staff, who probably graduated from diploma/adn programs. it's a great way to weed out staff who are making higher wages as well as getting rid of older staff who may not move as fast as a 22y old. i doubt it has all that much to do with wanting to have a more educated staff. many facilities don't even pay more for a bsn. it does look good if the hospital is going for magnet to have a mostly bsn staff.

isn't it funny, they are requiring a bsn with barely any pay difference (just the 'joy' of having more responsibility placed on your shoulders whether you want that or not) while they get more money via higher state rankings thereby advertising their hospital as being better because they are a 'magnet' hospital.

[Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN]

Isn't it funny, they are requiring a BSN with barely any pay difference (just the 'joy' of having more responsibility placed on your shoulders whether you want that or not) while they get more money via higher state rankings thereby advertising their hospital as being better because they are a 'magnet' hospital.

The hospitals don't get anymore money for Magnet status. It's a marketing tool and bragging rights. Medicare,Medicaid, insurance companies......don't reimburse them any higher than any other hospital. They may get more revenue because the general public may gravitate towards them.....but that's it.

[LockportRN]

The hospitals don't get anymore money for Magnet status. It's a marketing tool and bragging rights. Medicare,Medicaid, insurance companies......don't reimburse them any higher than any other hospital. They may get more revenue because the general public may gravitate towards them.....but that's it.

Ok, yes that is what I meant...thanks for putting it so succinctly for me :)

[Jammin' RN]

We have certainly all heard this conversation before! I'm an ADN nurse, but do plan on going for my BSN mostly because it will make me more marketable. I like the idea of having my BSN, but I'm afraid that if we push for every nurse to have a BSN, many people would not be able to afford it. It seems like a shame to cut out people who would be great nurses because of the financial factor. I don't think I personally would have been financially able to get a BSN degree in the situation I was in. That doesn't mean I don't desire it!!!

I really don't think one is better than the other. We all study hard, work hard, and care for our patients. Experience is what truly makes the nurse!

[floridanurse1983]

No? How many diploma programs are there anymore? What is happening to the masters level NP programs?

The BSN level of education will be the standard entry level of education for registered nurses in the future, just as the ASN is the standard now.

The AACN, NCSBN, ANA, NLN and others have already agreed on this subject and have put into motion long term interventions to make the BSN the standard.

LPNs are a different subject.

Operative word there is PROGRAMS. OP sounds like she wants to fire all nurses with less than a BSN and take their license away. New programs, whatever, but don't harp on nurses with knowledge. I'm an LPN and and take great offense to that. I know plenty of LPN's that are great nurses and plenty of BSN & MSN nurses who I wouldn't let wipe my ass.

[floridanurse1983]

You must admit that the education you received in the 80's is not adequate for what registered nursing has become today. No one wants to eradicate diploma nurses, ASNs, or LPNs. The goal is to change the future standard of education to better prepare students for the future as registered nursing becomes more and more advanced.

Same could be said about the education I'm receiving now. 20 years it will be also obsolete.

[Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN]

Ok, yes that is what I meant...thanks for putting it so succinctly for me :)

:hug:

[84RN]

I agree with the op. 30 years ago when in a BSN program, the professors repeated over and over again that "soon" a BSN would be required. It hasn't happened, at least not in most places. The community colleges and private for-profit schools are cranking out a lot of RNs, and we all know that it's pretty difficult to find an entry-level RN position in most of the country.

Pharmacists used to be master's-prepared, and now a doctorate is required. Same thing for physical therapists. To be an SLP, you must have a masters. I do think that there should be a standard entry-level for RNs, and it should be a BSN. This isn't a slam to AD nurses at all, because they can be just as clinically excellent as a BSN-prepared nurse. But we need to do this for the future of our profession.

[njmomstudent]

I don't think an ADN says anything about a person. Afterall, I just finished my ADN, however I also hold a BS in biology/animal science. I have had statistics and probably more science than any BSN prepared student. I have performed my own research, and have used all of my previous education towards my ADN. With that being said, I am going straight to a MSN program so I will have an easier time finding jobs later down the road, not because it will increase my clinical abilities and critical thinking skills. My ADN program kicked our butts, and we are better nurses for it.

You can also go the route of letting students graduate these programs that shouldn't. Many BSN's that work at our hospital only have one patient thier whole entire clinical. I cannot tell you how many I have seen DANGEROUSLY let off of orientation and had no idea (literally no clue) about normal urine or lab levels. Every program lets people graduate that shouldn't in my opinion, whether they are ADN or BSN. What about the age of people graduating and thier maturity factor?? Like another poster said, actually I'll go even further, I'd rather let my 3 year old care for my life than some nurses I've encountered. I honestly think it depends more on the person and their desire to learn and take their responsibilities seriously than where they've graduated from with what degree.