was this really cause of death?

care4you · Apr 15, 2007

I don't think I've ever heard of a lack of bowel movements as being a cause of death. I'm not sure where she ever got this idea.

Daytonite, BSN, RN · Apr 15, 2007

She's got a screw loose. This sounds to me like a case of someone who is trying to prove a theory floating around in her mind and probably looking for a buddy to agree with her theory. Poor thing doesn't realize how silly she sounds. If she went back to school or opened a book to learn the proper way to do this as well as read up on a few things she wouldn't look as nuts as she does. She may be a potential RN student in the making, just ignorant and doesn't know how to channel her thoughts and desire to learn. If not, then I go back to what I originally said--she's got a screw loose. Just ignore her.

The more I thought about this, the more I was thinking that this sounds like someone who is acting on a superstitious belief. Those old wives tales that we hear from older relatives as we grow up are sometimes hard to get out of our minds despite all the scientific learning we get. She may be trying to verify or disprove in her mind one of these old superstitions!

santhony44, MSN, RN, NP · Apr 15, 2007

one of my management team from work ( which happens to be an LPN like myself) has the habit of when one of my residents expire always checks to see when their last BM was - or if they have cardiac problems, GI problems, skin problems, blood glucose problems - anything at all her reasoning is lack of adequate bowel movements - I lost 2 of my residents in one week and her reasoning was " well they needed to crap " - what a great thing to say to a unit nurse that has cared for these people for years - does anyone out there have any enlightenment on this ? - it is kinda comical but serious also, especially when she tells family members this information too

If she's telling family members this, she's inviting a lawsuit. Speculating on the cause of death just isn't a good idea, and telling families that someone died because the facility or physician let that person get constipated is just asking for trouble. (Even if she's not wording it in those terms that's what she's saying. If Grandma died because her heart just stopped, that is nobody's fault, but if Grandma died because she didn't have a BM for 3 days, that is a situation someone could have alleviated.) :uhoh3:

I have heard of extreme cases of impaction where bowel rupture occurred, and cases of vagal nerve stimulation during disimpaction or while having a BM, but this gal is just speculating and going to cause trouble sooner or later.

Perhaps you could approach someone else in management and say something along the lines of "You know, Nurse X told Mrs. Jones' family that she probably died because she hadn't had a BM in 2 days. She may be right, but I worry that the family will think we didn't do enough for Mrs. Jones and call State and/or sue us...." Maybe pointing this out to other management will make them decide to tell Nurse X to keep her mouth shut!:trout:

I'd also make darned sure I was paying close attention to my residents' bowel situations and documenting care given in that regard, just in case.

chris_at_lucas_RN, RN · Apr 15, 2007

People who are at the ends of their lives generally stop eating, drinking, peeing and pooping. The body doesn't need that stuff anymore--it has a different job to do.

Your colleague has an interesting premise, but I think in this case, A (no BM) doesn't cause B (death), I think A and B were caused by C (the actual cause of death). And if you are working with persons with terminal illness or those who are frail elderly, you don't have to look far for cause. Sometimes stuff just shuts down because it doesn't work anymore.

Clearly your coworker has an inquiring mind and a scientific perspective. Maybe you can put her onto pain management and comfort measures at the end of life. Being able to recognize the signs of impending end of life and making sure the death is peaceful and comfortable is a laudable, and badly needed, cause for "research."

pepperann35 · Apr 15, 2007

I am in management at a LTC facility. I am also a LPN. When someone dies or goes the hospital, we have to fill out a form called "possible adverse incident report." It describes what occured during the incident, what lead up to it, and did we do everything possible to prevent what occured. We check out pts. diagnosis and see if we were monitoring for condition changes, labs, vitals, pt. complaints, etc., depending on what the incident was.We want to do everything possible to protect our patients,and to get all of duck in a row to ready ourselves for a potential lawsuit, should one occur. I would NEVER openly blame the staff for a patient death, NEVER! That supervisor should be reported. I bet risk management would have a cow if they new what she said! That supervisor is very unprofessional and a huge risk to your company, not to mention the pain she is causing to family members!

axlryl · Apr 15, 2007

This is hilarious. I work in a Nursing home and of course old people have always the problem of irregular BMs. But it doesn't mean that when they are unable to have BMs, they will die because of it. There are lots of remedies to this problems of the elderlies like laxatives or enema. They die because their systems shuts down. Is this a dumb reply?

lovejana22 · Apr 15, 2007

i had a nurse tell me one time that my daughter was not potty training good b/c her spine was not developed!!!!! :uhoh3: she also lived down the street from me and told me this was also the reason why her daughter was not potty trained yet. i know her daughter and there is nothing wrong with either her daughter or mine!!!! :smackingf.....i remember thinking what a weirdo, and after this i did not have really any more conversations with her, there were a lot of other things that she said that really did not make a lot of sense. i thought wow how did she get through school!!!

TraumaICURN · Apr 15, 2007

Next time she says it, I would ask her what's the rationale behind her crazy reasoning.....She probably doesn't have one....just something she saw on TV or misoverheard someone say.

crissrn27, RN · Apr 15, 2007

Even if no BM for a long freakin' time =bowel rupture it doesn't = instant death........probably have abdominal pain, fever, etc first doncha think? I too would be interested in knowing her rationale. Does she have any other, ummmm, interesting theories?

LPNJessi · Apr 16, 2007

We had a patient at my work that seemed healthy when she went to an appointment. While at the appointment her bowels ruptured and in less then 12 hours she died. But she si the only person that we have had at my work in the last 2 years that has died from bowel probs.

Antikigirl, ASN, RN · Apr 16, 2007

A nurse can NOT diagnose death or reason for death..that is an MD deal big time and for good reason!

What she is trying to get at is the vagal responce causing death. Vagal stimulation by having pressure in the bowels on the vagal nerve causes bradycardia...and many people subscibe to this being causation because of Elvis's famous death by dying on the toliet from cardiac failure from vagal stimulation! LOL! I have had two people code this way...but was able to bring them back with quick action and quick EMS reponce.

But someone just laying in bed or something....heck, the body is a system of interacting parts all connected, there can be..and usually is, more than one reason for death...on part not working right, another fails, chain reaction...and reasons for this are countless! That is why there is a specific MD to diagnose this..the coroner!

Personally I would have giggled at this nurse and said "no I think you need to take a crap cause you are full of it!"...LOL!