For those of you who are following the Radonda Vaught case, she was a guest on the podcast Good Nurse Bad Nurse on January 18, 2022. (For those not familiar with this case, search for Radonda Vaught and read the threads on the case. It was discussed extensively.)
I stumbled across the podcast when searching for when her trial starts.
Spoiler alert - she's the "Good Nurse" featured on the podcast.
The host gives a version of the case starting about 30 minutes 30 seconds. Radonda starts speaking around 40 minutes.
I'm surprised her lawyer would allow her to speak publicly.
We're at this point because the instant that CMS caught up with VUMC and asked them to answer for their actions, they got the DA on board to help them out.
I do. Keep in mind both things can be true at the same time, I.e. feeling that this is playing out the way it is because it best serves the interest of another party that also did wrong doesn't mean that RV didn't do anything wrong or that she wasn't negligent; the court may very well even agree that she was straight up reckless. Just the same, the entities that adjudicate the continuum of nursing badness from day to day had made a decision about this, and it wasn't anyone else's ethics that prompted a second look, it was VUMC unexpectedly finding themselves in hot water.
Actually, I will edit: Scapegoating maybe not the right term, as she did do major wrong. But I do think that at some point it became very convenient to point at her again, painting her in an even worse light [the override, this strange help-all role that supposedly no one else knows about, as if RV just made that up, etc.] because it absolutely does help deflect from others' actions.
It does matter that they quietly fired her and reported her to BON and went on about their business, as opposed to firing her, reporting the death to appropriate entities, reporting the sentinel event to CMS and reporting her to BON. Nurses are always going to argue about the degree of wrong that she did or didn't do and what it all means. But it absolutely does matter that VUMC should have been in some of the world's deepest *** for what they did, they should be out of business, and instead the entire focus, using public funds, is on some 2-year-nurse who will we already know will not be practicing as a nurse again.
People keep saying VUMC actions are a separate matter. Yes. They are a separate matter that is never going to be addressed. As planned.
I see what you're saying but in an unusual turn of events have to disagree with you. There is only one victim here and that is Charlene Murphee. I truly hope that people don't lose sight of that.
Let me spare you the listen... Here is exactly how it was presented word for word, after an overview of the story.
Quote
"There were problems with the omnicell system and nurses were required to routinely hit override when pulling standard medications out of the cabinet. So Redonda had to type the name of the medication, so she started typing the name of the drug, Versed, and Vecuronium popped up.
Then they made this statement...
"
Quote
Before you start thinking this could never happen to you, how many of you refer to medications by the brand name? Most nurses aren't familiar with generic names. And usually the generic names sometimes are longer. So can you see how if you started to type in ve and one medication comes up and you have a student with you that can be very distracting, you may be thinking that the name that comes up is the generic name of the drug you were looking for.So she reconstituted the medication, and took it to radiology. Now keep in mind that down there in radiology there is no computer, no scanning mechanism that she could use to verify the medication order.
Quote
So without a computer it is impossible for a nurse to verify the five rights of medication that we all are supposed to do.
So she gives the patient what she thought was midazolam, which ordinarily would only cause mild sedation... She then left to go to the ED since they needed her there
*No, I don't give medications without knowing both the brand name and generic name.
*An ICU nurse would know the difference between versed and vecuronium.
*No, versed is not just a "mild sedative"
*How on earth did nurses ever check the five rights before computers? My jaw dropped when I heard that comment.
No I don't think she should be criminally charged but I do think that losing her license was appropriate. She should never practice nursing again.
The actions of the hospital are in a separate category. There's much to find fault with.
I know this thread wasn't posted to review the podcast, but I didn't have a great impression. I was at first excited to have found a new podcast that would be relevant to nursing, but I think I will pass on this one.
I think she should lose her license...but I don't think she should be criminally charged as that is a precedent that I don't want to take. Nurses are human beings and human being make mistakes. This, unfortunately, was one that ended someone's life.
Let me spare you the listen... Here is exactly how it was presented word for word, after an overview of the story.
Then they made this statement...
"
*No, I don't give medications without knowing both the brand name and generic name.
*An ICU nurse would know the difference between versed and vecuronium.
*No, versed is not just a "mild sedative"
*How on earth did nurses ever check the five rights before computers? My jaw dropped when I heard that comment.
No I don't think she should be criminally charged but I do think that losing her license was appropriate. She should never practice nursing again.
The actions of the hospital are in a separate category. There's much to find fault with.
I know this thread wasn't posted to review the podcast, but I didn't have a great impression. I was at first excited to have found a new podcast that would be relevant to nursing, but I think I will pass on this one.
Anyone have other suggestions?
Whoever wrote that overview must think nurses are pretty dumb. ?
Whoever wrote that overview must think nurses are pretty dumb. ?
I listened to a good deal of it (using fast forward PRN so I'm sure I missed a bit) and I think one or both of them are nurses. I heard the female relating some blah, blah, blah about a physician with whom she had worked. I don't know if they wrote it, but they read/spoke it out loud as if it is normal to not know names of meds and to think the 5Rs were impossible without computers.
Then again, I was of the opinion that if one couldn't get a hold of a scanner and a monitor to use, it was all a stupid plan to begin with. Use oral meds and oh well if the schedule has to be rearranged. That's another lesson that we can all apply to real life right now, today--stop compromising on serious/important/high-risk things in order to meet others' objectives, preferences and desires.
I think she should lose her license...but I don't think she should be criminally charged as that is a precedent that I don't want to take. Nurses are human beings and human being make mistakes. This, unfortunately, was one that ended someone's life.
100% I agree with this. Whatever errors she made— she should lose her nursing license. She should NOT be criminally charged.
No...I think they were there to investigate what happened. But the way those elements were portrayed by VUMC was ridiculous. They were the ones with the agenda. I'd have to review, too, but I had the impression CMS was there because they were tipped off about the situation months later. [However, as a side note I'm not sure they asked all the relevant questions but I didn't have the impression that was due to malicious intent but rather just some degree of ignorance about what all goes on).
The news coverage made a big deal about the override function. I don't remember VUMC or CMS making that an issue. Perhaps you are thinking of the news coverage?
CMS was tipped off. Initially they said they were alerted by an anonymous source. Later I read that it was a physician. Then a short time later the name of the physician came out.
Separate--and cannot excuse RVs actions--but relevant if you need a defense. If I were her lawyer I would aggressively present information about the culture of that corporation, especially in a scenario where (whether any of us agree with the decision or not) regulatory agencies had already decided that RV's actions did not warrant the kind of action that is going on now. We didn't get to this point because RV hid something or becauseof actual public outrage about the TBON's decision about how to handle RV. We're at this point because the instant that CMS caught up with VUMC and asked them to answer for their actions, they got the DA on board to help them out.
I don't think that VUMC got the DA on board to help them out.
I have cousins who are lawyers in Nashville. They know the DA. He spent probably 30 years of his career as a defense attorney. He ran for office because he wanted to clean up the DAs office. My cousins know him professionally not socially. They say he is highly respected in the legal community by both defense and prosecution.
I would say it is more likely that the DA pursued this because the TBON took no action at all. You had a nurse who carelessly caused a death and the TBON didn't even require a few hours of CE on safe medication administration. She still had an unencumbered license. DAs feel obligated to act if they feel their community is at risk.
Let me spare you the listen... Here is exactly how it was presented word for word, after an overview of the story.
Then they made this statement...
"
*No, I don't give medications without knowing both the brand name and generic name.
*An ICU nurse would know the difference between versed and vecuronium.
*No, versed is not just a "mild sedative"
*How on earth did nurses ever check the five rights before computers? My jaw dropped when I heard that comment.
No I don't think she should be criminally charged but I do think that losing her license was appropriate. She should never practice nursing again.
The actions of the hospital are in a separate category. There's much to find fault with.
I know this thread wasn't posted to review the podcast, but I didn't have a great impression. I was at first excited to have found a new podcast that would be relevant to nursing, but I think I will pass on this one.
Anyone have other suggestions?
I'm glad you said all that. That was my response too. I have heard all those excuses and explanations in many articles. I was starting to wonder if I expected too much.?
Wuzzie
5,242 Posts
So do you think RV is being scapegoated?