As an offshoot to the News article about nursing education, an opinion was brought to the board that LPNs are not adequately prepared to care for patients, and that their education is not strenuous like an RN program is. Having been in the field for awhile, what is your opinion on the differences between LPNs and RNs, other than the legally different aspects (LPNs cannot do initial assessments or IVs in my state for instance)
I'm not looking to start trouble, but rather discuss the topic in an area other than an unrelated thread.
Differences in LPNs vs RNs (educationally, functionally, intellectually)
Best way to combat any possible negatives of the above
Advice for an LPN student (who is too far through her program to just throw it out and start over in an RN program - already applied for an LPN to RN program starting Jan 2010)
Should I really expect to run into attitudes in the workplace about my not being worthwhile as an employee and a care provider because I chose the path that I have? How do you handle it if you do?
There is a local small rural hospital that pays incredibly well for LPNs right out of school and who has been trying very hard to recruit us during clinicals... am I going to be inequipped to care for patients there because of my education? I would never want to get into a situation where patient care was compromised because my education was lacking somehow...
Specializes in Community Health, Med-Surg, Home Health.
you know, im beggining to think the lpn vs rn is more generational. the lpns are usually older and the rns younger and i think thats where conflict arise. seeing someone with more education but less experience may make the older generation angry.now, in my personal observations, when i was an lpn there were a few nasty comments but nasty commnets have gotten worse since crossing to the other side from lpns. please,this is just my opinion and observations so please dont react negatively to what i am saying. also, in a post above, someone wrote their agency is paying rns and lpns the same. i think no rn would work for the same pay b/c its unfair. i hope no rns work with that b/c after all those years trying to get a fair wage, this would feel like a slap in the face. remember, a lot were lpns at one time. so, just think how many went back to school to become rns only to stay at the same pay rate.
I not arguing with you (or any RN) about the fact that an agency is lowering their rate of pay for the Registered Nurse...I would be upset as well. I am not sure if this is generational, because I think there is always going to be some resentment for an incumbant person to show their boss how to be in charge of them. In terms of fair wage, I have noticed on these boards that in some states the starting rate of pay for a new RN can be as low as $5 more than LPNs. I would be upset as well, to have that additional responsibility, but the lower licensed person can make as much or even more than I with just a half day of overtime. But, this agency lowering their rate of pay for the RNs after all this time is showing what they really think of them, and while that definitely isn't nice, it also isn't fair that the role of the LPN is overlooked and taken advantage of.
Again, my only issue is that one should not belittle or begrudge another person because they took a different path than they, and also, not to belittle the role that the person already plays in nursing.
Specializes in Med/Surge, Geriatrics(LTC), Pediatricts,.
Ok, we are coming back to the same issues, and concerns, but no answers on how to lobby, or get serious about being taken seriously for our chosen profession as an LPN.
On the pay scale, I've worked many different areas of nursing, and in a couple different states, the worst was one area in upstate NY, big slaps in the face mostly with the pay scale. RN make triple what the LPN's make, LPN's make only about 3% more than the CNA's, and in some facilities the CNA's make MORE than the LPN's almost as much as the RN's do. The argument is: RN"s have the training, CNA's do the back breaking work, and the LPN's are just along for the ride. So, that puts a sour taste in most LPN's mouth. The agency I'm with now, pays a fair scale to what your level of training is.
Another person mentioned about LPN's being BCLS trained. How do you feel that I as an EMT am ACLS? No, I can't perform any work as ACLS when I'm working as an LPN, but as an EMT, and other EMT's who have no nursing training are ACLS certified as well. I also took PALS, as part of my EMT training, in a class with nurses, RN's, from the local hospital, there were a couple others of us EMT's who took this class, and strangely, the RN's and Drs. in the class had the hardest time, and had to be remediated in order to pass, while us EMT's passed no problem. Yet, LPN's aren't allowed, or capable, to be ACLS trained in their work places?
I wonder if all nurse titles were eliminated, and we were just "Nurse" vs RN, LPN, LVN, CNA, if that would make any difference. And requirements for training etc. were all the same. A Federalized program if you will, so each state would be the same as well.
And yes, to the one who mentioned it's an age thing, older LPN's vs younger RN's. I have to agree. I started in nursing at a time when LPN's were respected for what they did in the hospitals, when RN's were in very short supply, and LPN programs were getting nurses out there at an affordable cost to the student. Remember, when those of us older nurses, LPN's, started in nursing, it was during a recession time, not much money to go to college, and Government grant programs paid for only certian levels of programs. LPN vs RN was one area. And when we got licensed, and working with an RN, we got the hands on training, the sink or swim training. An RN would be grateful to see an LPN pop in the door of the two bed ICU unit where I got my start in nursing, because there just wasn't enough RN's to do all the work. And under the RN's direction and supervision, we, LPN's, got trained in IV starts, IV med admin, cardiac monitoring. But couldn't take it anyplace, because it was facility unique. In this facility, I also did nurse ride alongs when a pt was transported via ambulance from one facility to another, and under the direct order of the Dr from the sending facility could administer IV narcotics. Just some differences in time, and location.
My mother is an LPN on a PCU unit and trust me she can work rings around many nurses and should be an RN but feels she is too old to go back to school (almost 70) she is very knowledgeable about all things nursing (she makes it her business to know,She does IV pushes,Moniters,works in ICU etc..and when new RN's are hired guess who they have train them?
Dear old mom! I am very proud of her,Yep she is just a "useless" LPN
Specializes in psychiatric, UR analyst, fraud, DME,MedB.
So sad that some people are so attached to "titles". But worse is to be little others because they do not know what that person can do........no wonder this country have such a problem in hurdling the racial and the gender issues...they just can not seem to go beyond titles, color and gender. Lord have mercy on us !
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
I think nursing should appreciate and protect NURSING'S role and scope, both at the RN and LPN level (and beyond, say in NP/CRNA/CNM arenas). We still need LPNs with RNs in many areas that may not include all hospitals. What really concerns the heck out of me is the increasing number and role of unlicensed personnel doing tasks that should remain strictly in nursing realm, yet nurses will be held accountable for. Let's stop being "crabs in a barrel" and tearing each other down. Much more useful would be becoming politically active and fighting to keep NURSING as we know it and safeguard the patients in our care in the process. How many of us are truly familiar with our State/Provincial Nurse Practice Acts and are members of our State/Provincial Nursing Associations? That to me is where we start and work to keep the definition and scope of NURSING within OUR control. ANYhow, That is how I see it.
I wonder if all nurse titles were eliminated, and we were just "Nurse" vs RN, LPN, LVN, CNA, if that would make any difference. And requirements for training etc. were all the same. A Federalized program if you will, so each state would be the same as well.
I've also pondered the federalization of licensing...it occurred to me that 90% or so of the states use the NCLEX anyway...and yet each individual state has a different scope and different licensing requirements. We all live in the US, though. Hmmm. I can see certain people with certain views jumping on this, saying "The Fed has enough control over things, blah blah blah..."
i think a federal program would be fantastic. I see all the time on allnurses some lpns, med assistants or even cna's write " I can do so and so" but then i ask myself" I thought they cant do that,thats out of their scope of practice" but as i read furthur they are from another state.(not intended as a disrespect but rather the complexity of the situation) Plus i wont keep having to pay fees for different states for a license.,esp in non compact states. I always wondered how come some states participate in the compact and some dont. Is it because the boards rules and regulations are similiar?
Ok, we are coming back to the same issues, and concerns, but no answers on how to lobby, or get serious about being taken seriously for our chosen profession as an LPN.
On the pay scale, I've worked many different areas of nursing, and in a couple different states, the worst was one area in upstate NY, big slaps in the face mostly with the pay scale. RN make triple what the LPN's make, LPN's make only about 3% more than the CNA's, and in some facilities the CNA's make MORE than the LPN's almost as much as the RN's do. The argument is: RN"s have the training, CNA's do the back breaking work, and the LPN's are just along for the ride. So, that puts a sour taste in most LPN's mouth. The agency I'm with now, pays a fair scale to what your level of training is.
Another person mentioned about LPN's being BCLS trained. How do you feel that I as an EMT am ACLS? No, I can't perform any work as ACLS when I'm working as an LPN, but as an EMT, and other EMT's who have no nursing training are ACLS certified as well. I also took PALS, as part of my EMT training, in a class with nurses, RN's, from the local hospital, there were a couple others of us EMT's who took this class, and strangely, the RN's and Drs. in the class had the hardest time, and had to be remediated in order to pass, while us EMT's passed no problem. Yet, LPN's aren't allowed, or capable, to be ACLS trained in their work places?
I wonder if all nurse titles were eliminated, and we were just "Nurse" vs RN, LPN, LVN, CNA, if that would make any difference. And requirements for training etc. were all the same. A Federalized program if you will, so each state would be the same as well.
And yes, to the one who mentioned it's an age thing, older LPN's vs younger RN's. I have to agree. I started in nursing at a time when LPN's were respected for what they did in the hospitals, when RN's were in very short supply, and LPN programs were getting nurses out there at an affordable cost to the student. Remember, when those of us older nurses, LPN's, started in nursing, it was during a recession time, not much money to go to college, and Government grant programs paid for only certian levels of programs. LPN vs RN was one area. And when we got licensed, and working with an RN, we got the hands on training, the sink or swim training. An RN would be grateful to see an LPN pop in the door of the two bed ICU unit where I got my start in nursing, because there just wasn't enough RN's to do all the work. And under the RN's direction and supervision, we, LPN's, got trained in IV starts, IV med admin, cardiac monitoring. But couldn't take it anyplace, because it was facility unique. In this facility, I also did nurse ride alongs when a pt was transported via ambulance from one facility to another, and under the direct order of the Dr from the sending facility could administer IV narcotics. Just some differences in time, and location.
a great post but the problem is"what is a fair pay scale in regards to training or experience"? I think pay should also be nationalized. I think that to be paid 30.00 an hour as a new grad in S. Carolina and Nevada and start off with the same amount in Ny for new grads would be fair, and it would relieve the shortage of nurses in the west and south by encouraging new grads from say, Cali or Ny an incentitive to work in these areas.
Specializes in psychiatric, UR analyst, fraud, DME,MedB.
Yes, it will make sense if they standardized the training of nurses and levels and reciprocity !!!! Why does different states have different requirements, different regs? Well , I can see the license reciprocity to other states----- the state makes money from these licenses ------ so the reciprocity do not give them any hoopla!!!!
Also we need somethng for nurses to unite like the equivalent of the AMA ----this body dictates , rules and lobbies their interests for physicians. Think what we can do if we have something like this????????
I think nursing should appreciate and protect NURSING'S role and scope, both at the RN and LPN level (and beyond, say in NP/CRNA/CNM arenas). We still need LPNs with RNs in many areas that may not include all hospitals. What really concerns the heck out of me is the increasing number and role of unlicensed personnel doing tasks that should remain strictly in nursing realm, yet nurses will be held accountable for. Let's stop being "crabs in a barrel" and tearing each other down. Much more useful would be becoming politically active and fighting to keep NURSING as we know it and safeguard the patients in our care in the process. How many of us are truly familiar with our State/Provincial Nurse Practice Acts and are members of our State/Provincial Nursing Associations? That to me is where we start and work to keep the definition and scope of NURSING within OUR control. ANYhow, That is how I see it.
Wow! Thank you so much for making this point:yeah:
If we all decided to act as a cohesive group and tore up Capitol Hill like we tear apart one another...Man, we would be a dangerous, PRODUCTIVE bunch!...
Specializes in Med/Surge, Geriatrics(LTC), Pediatricts,.
Again, I'm asking, how do we get organized to get reform, and unity amoung nursing? How do we grow from the "...crabs in a barrell..." to a uniform group of medical field proffessionals? It would be fantastic to be able to go from state to state and not have to worry about the licensure, it would be a federlized licensure, that would be great for those who live boardering other states as well, such as NY/VT, Some nurses I know travel about 40 miles in NY to work, where it would be closer for them to find a job in VT, but because they live in NY, and got their licensure in NY, they work in NY, and travel the distance. This uniformity would also eliminate the state to state differences, each state would be the same, same requirements etc. no time wasted learning what you can and can't do in a particular state vs another. Pay scale state to state or region to region that's a different thing, I don't see a small rural hospital in the Blue Ridge Mts paying what Boston General can. But then if medicine were socialized... I wonder how that would benefit or worsen the situation...
Specializes in psychiatric, UR analyst, fraud, DME,MedB.
My suggestion will be to start looking at our nurses association. What can they offer to their members? We need to look at what is in place in the nurses association. I am sure that their are areas that does not need re inventing, but what else can we add or introduce? All of the above comments was right on the head of some of our blazing nursing issues. Reciprocity and staffing ratios may be the first few that we need nurses to lobby about.
Do you think that the nurses association is not doing enough for the nurses rights, pay, staffing and reciprocity...among other concerns? Let us stop tearing at each other and unite ???? then only then we can rise from petty to big things.
pagandeva2000, LPN
7,984 Posts
I not arguing with you (or any RN) about the fact that an agency is lowering their rate of pay for the Registered Nurse...I would be upset as well. I am not sure if this is generational, because I think there is always going to be some resentment for an incumbant person to show their boss how to be in charge of them. In terms of fair wage, I have noticed on these boards that in some states the starting rate of pay for a new RN can be as low as $5 more than LPNs. I would be upset as well, to have that additional responsibility, but the lower licensed person can make as much or even more than I with just a half day of overtime. But, this agency lowering their rate of pay for the RNs after all this time is showing what they really think of them, and while that definitely isn't nice, it also isn't fair that the role of the LPN is overlooked and taken advantage of.
Again, my only issue is that one should not belittle or begrudge another person because they took a different path than they, and also, not to belittle the role that the person already plays in nursing.