As an offshoot to the News article about nursing education, an opinion was brought to the board that LPNs are not adequately prepared to care for patients, and that their education is not strenuous like an RN program is. Having been in the field for awhile, what is your opinion on the differences between LPNs and RNs, other than the legally different aspects (LPNs cannot do initial assessments or IVs in my state for instance)
I'm not looking to start trouble, but rather discuss the topic in an area other than an unrelated thread.
Differences in LPNs vs RNs (educationally, functionally, intellectually)
Best way to combat any possible negatives of the above
Advice for an LPN student (who is too far through her program to just throw it out and start over in an RN program - already applied for an LPN to RN program starting Jan 2010)
Should I really expect to run into attitudes in the workplace about my not being worthwhile as an employee and a care provider because I chose the path that I have? How do you handle it if you do?
There is a local small rural hospital that pays incredibly well for LPNs right out of school and who has been trying very hard to recruit us during clinicals... am I going to be inequipped to care for patients there because of my education? I would never want to get into a situation where patient care was compromised because my education was lacking somehow...
I have to say too that I am so glad we don't have this conflict where I work. I work in a clinic. We have an RN as our DON and the rest of us are LPNs with a couple of RNs in there with us. Any other place I have ever been I have never encountered this problem either. I know our hospital still hires LPNs and we have one of the best schools in the town I work in. As I have said before, I came out of school with soooo much clinical experience, mostly in med surg at the hospital. But in my state we are allowed to do most everthing an RN can do. I think it aweful that there are places where LPN are not being used properly or the states scope of practice does not allow an LPN to do what LPNs were made for. If used correctly we are a great addition to the team.
I've never said anything of the sort. I have nothing against LPN's and I do not want to "do away with" LPN's - everyone in the health care setting, from the RN to housekeeping has their place, and none of them could do their jobs without the other.
I simply stated my experience in health care, I further stated what NYS allowed LPN's to do, and I also stated why their is a difference in the scope of practice between the RN and LPN - all of which are factual. The two are NOT created equal, but both are important in any health care setting.
Stop making me out to be the heavy. Now I've had enough with this thread.
It wasn't addressed to you as an individual. It was a reply in this thread.
Specializes in Onco, palliative care, PCU, HH, hospice.
I am also in Virginia and my hospital is letting go of all LPNs as of May 1st due to the fact that they can not do just about everything that RNs do as you say. Maybe it's different in corrections? I dunno. LPNs can not do initial assessments, push many drugs that need titration, do any discharge teaching, or hang blood without an RN. We have a few excellent LPNs who have been around forever and some are going back to school and others will work in off-site facilities. I have seen LPNs do many things outside of their scope of practice and no one blinks an eye...not until now anyway. I certainly don't think that LPNs should be done away with altogether but I think that they should not practice outside their scope of practice. Please don't flame me as I have all the respect for fellow nurses.
Actually depending on the facility, in Virginia they can. Virginia does not have a definitive document for the scope of practice for LPN's, it is instead left up to each FACILITY in the state to decide what an LPN can and cannot do. That is why each facility in VA the role of the LPN can vary widely. In one facility I was not allowed to administer most IV pushes with the exception of ACLS drugs during a code (makes a lot of sense huh?). At the facility I'm at now, I can administer any type of IV medication with the exception of chemo, anesthesia, etc. This allows LPN's to be utilized in many different units throughout the facility I work in. Do I do the same exact job that an RN does? No, there are still some things I'm not allowed to do, charge, spiking of blood. However, do I perform in the role as a primary nurse to my patients, responsible for the care they receive and don't receive while under my care? Yes. And I do it at a fraction of the cost for the hospital. In reality, it takes all of us in healthcare working together, RN's, LPN's, CNA's, RRT's, MD's, PT's, OT's, SW's all of us are equally important in different ways.
I have to wonder how many RNs would also be humbled by your clear, strong grip of the pathophys. I graduated from a BSN program and while we were certainly exposed to pathophys through the textbook readings and doing our case studies and care plans, it was overall rather cursory. I actually found it quite frustrating because I wanted more depth of understanding of the underlying mechanisms but in order to cover the wide bredth of content being covered and to get our lengthy care plans done and to study effectively to pass the NCLEX-style tests, there just wasn't much time to do much more than get the gist of it and move on to the next unit.
The level of the explanations in the nursing texts were very succinct and didn't go into much depth. It was generally a few paragraphs of pathophys for each condition covered. They also didn't give much context, just lists of common signs and symptoms. I don't see how an average LPN curriculum could be that much less in depth than an average RN curriculum. They often even use the same textbooks.
I imagine that some LPN programs are essentially at the same level of RN programs core curriculum for med-surg. And I can see why they'd feel frustrated at the limits imposed upon their scope of practice. Other programs might not be as rigorous, scraping by providing the bare minimum of instruction and giving rise to the overused explanation that LPNs aren't taught critical thinking skills and don't know the why behind the nursing tasks they do.
thank you jjjoy! you are so on point with your comments. i couldnt understand how an LPN would know the same thing as an RN when they take the same classes as RN's in the first year. when it was stated that LPN's dont know what physiology is most RN's dont either because they dont have pathophysiology its only in the BSN when you really get indepth to it. then to state that LPN's wouldnt know what lab values are is totally ridiculous.
Where I live most medical facilities have banned smoking on their campuses, so no one takes smoke breaks anymore...
My best friend just moved to Cleveland, where the Cleveland Clinic tests for nicotine as well as other drugs. If you smoke, you don't work there, period.
Anyway, I can't believe all the freaking segues that came out of this thread!
Babs, I appreciate what you posted about why hospitals no longer hire us; I have long wondered that and you have finally been able to give me an answer that makes sense to me; we are seeing much higher acuity in facilities which have until recently seen lower levels of care.
I must say, however, that there are MANY MANY LPN programs that teach very strong critical thinking during that first year and include lots of learning how to diagnose (nursing diagnoses) and put together the big picture rather than just do tasks. In fact, my LPN program graduated one woman who was given the RN NCLEX by mistake and she passed. Several of my RN instructors who graduated from the same program told me that the RN portion training was a breeze compared to the year they did in this LPN program. I have also personally worked with LPNs who have been in the industry for years and can think just as critically and come up with the correct interventions and implementations as their RN counterparts. Just MHO.
Jjjoy, you are right; my Nursing Arts book in my LPN program was the same one used in the local BSN program, and we read the WHOLE THING! And just by talking with some ASNs at work, I wrote just as many, if not more, care plans, and had just as much clinical time as they did. It does seem to me that in the nursing world, it is book knowledge and not actual clinical knowledge that earns the better pay and recognition.
I am an LVN and I am very good at what I do lab draws,injections and wound vac. I am IV cert. My thing is some LVN's are content being just that. I would love to enhance my career to RN. Only problem their are NO LVN/LPN to RN Programs really available in Southern California. All the city colleges have 2-3 year waiting list the online programs are Too $$$ I studied did my clinicals past my test and boards just like the RN's I just wasnt able to have that extra semester or semesters to reach that status. for the one who suggested to do away with LVN/LPN remember you were one before you became an RN.
Specializes in psychiatric, UR analyst, fraud, DME,MedB.
LPN's and RN's are both needed. and yes I do agree that an LPN program need to be set up in the pre requisites to continue to RN w/o wasting any subjects. BSN , ASN or diploma nursing are all valuable . Theoretical higher studies, are necessary, but none of this is valuable unless they are utilized or practiced or applied. The best way to learn a skill is by actually doing it, and you learn this in the floor where you work. Having an excellent mentor in a clinical environment is the best way to learn, no matter what your degree is.
You see some facilities do not understand that assigning the new RN graduates over an experienced LVN , is just wrong, and simply showing their lack of understanding and ignorance as to how these things work. Titles is good , but not a measurement of what a good nurse is ---basically , the real test of a good nurse is how they respond to emergencies (critical thinking --and what this means really is common sense) and priorities . Experience is the best school that I can think of . Higher degrees are more of satisfying a society that looks at "titles" and degrees , rather than a functioning nurse in the floor !
Believe it or not, this issue comes up frequently on our floor. I am a cardiac nurse and have been nursing for almost 18 years. I started out as an LPN, by taking an LPN/RN program in Kansas. This type of program let people who could not for some reason continue on to get their RN degree. (ADN) The program was the same, all the way through the 1st and second semesters. The people who were getting their LPN "out" took their summer clinicals and then, at that time, sat for their boards. Now some of us wanted to work as LPN's while continuing on in the RN program. I was one of those people. It gave me even more experience to be a better nurse and it also help tremendously in taking my boards! The book work was the same. The practicum was more intense in the last semesters, but it really was mostly clinicals.
I have never treated an LPN as a substandard nurse. It comes up because some of the LPN's are being pressured to go back and get their RN degrees, mainly because our hospital is trying to push them out.
In saying that, we have a few LPN's with chips on their shoulders because of being treated improperly by other nursing staff. One even told me when she "needed" me to give a narcotic IV push medication that she thought it ridiculous that I had to cover for her. She knew what she was doing and she felt that it made her feel incompetent. I informed her that it wasn't anything to do with how she did her job. It was the fact that her license didn't allow her to do that. Nor did the hospital. She was in school to get her RN and now she is an RN. Interesting enough, now she doesn't want to help the LPN's. It's not a perfect world is it?
I don't know what the answer is. I'm working on my BSN and then MSN. There are changes coming and I feel they are not going to be all that great in the near future.
I am currently an RN, but was an LVN (California) for five years before becoming an RN. I worked in LTC initially and then slid into a very challengin Sub Acute. Along the way I worked as the MDS coordinator for a 200 bed facility. When I went for my RN clinical was very easy. All I really wanted to do were IVs as I was already proficient in all the skills that were being presented. This was expected as it was a bridge program. I have known many LVNs who were as proficient as RNs. It all depends on skill levels. At the same time I have seen new RNs who are barely functional (poor assessment skills and inability to run a code). LVNs have their niches and if given support are excellent nurses.
I teach in an LVN program. Here in south Texas LVN's are so needed. The talk about doing away with LVN/LPN's has been going on for decades- I am an RN about to graduate with my MSN. THe RN program at my college assumes I will transfer to the RN program to teach. THey are mistaken- I love what I do and our LVN's can function as well as if not better that some RN's. We teach them to start IV's also. THere are just a few things they can't do but not many.
I also know that there are many LVN's I would rather care for me or my family than some RN's I know. Yes, the degree is important, but it is the person that matters.
stilltrying
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