Stopped at local pharmacy to pick up prescription. Asked pharm tech how her daughter was (she's a traveling nurse); she said great, we briefly discussed how she's deciding between staying and moving on, compensations etc. I said that I heard that travelers out her way made some really good money.....and the pharm tech said "well, you guys here make really good money with just a two year degree." JUST. Said in such a way as to make me think she equated my educational experience with a humanities major. Hey: poetry, history, nursing, all the same stuff, right?
I said you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who finishes an RN program in only 2 years nowadays. She shrugged, said her daughter "blew through" it (ten years ago or so). She didn't want to hear that things have changed a TAD since then.
Sigh. I think I'll take up basket-weaving. Appears I'm qualified.
In all reality, if you start a post with the title "Just" a two year degree---what road did you expect to see the thread led down?
If your original premise is that people don't respect or understand the 2 year ADN degree--and the general public does not---AND it appears to bother you---perhaps listening to those making cogent arguments for all BSN practice might start to make sense to ya.
Maybe not...
At the risk of taking the bait and volleying the nasties, I'll explain it simply: I vented my frustration at having someone who had more 'inside' knowledge than the general public, a pharmacy technician, consider the Associates RN equivalent to a bulls**t humanities degree. That considering we "only" went to school for two years, we ought to be down on our knees grateful for the dollars we receive each week. I was venting my frustration at the misconception that such a degree is passed as easily as most any other Associates degree, and that in fact it really only did take two years.
The people who responded early in this thread got that. Those who twisted my intent to mean that two year ADN and four year BSN degrees are equivalent did so on their own.
I don't need to hear any more arguments, cogent or otherwise, for making BSN entry-level to practice. I didn't state my own opinion on that topic, either. It wasn't relevant to the discussion at hand.
Maybe now you'll understand why I am dismayed to see the thread led down this way. Maybe not...
We wouldn't have to debate or defend anything if we had the same entry into practice as others who called themselves "professionals". Nursing is the only health care profession who call themselves "professionals", without having the same educational preparation as others do.
Nursing is always having to validate itself, defend, and make excuses, for our low levels of education into practice. We make a futile attempt to validate our profession, with excuses, like, "well, not everyone can afford, or take the time to get a four year degree". How then, do other health care professionals manage to make it through, not only a four year college, but the post graduate education for their entry into practice.
No one is saying anyone is less than adequate. What we are saying is that, in order to keep up and maintain our credibility with the public, we need to increase our entry into practice to at least a BSN. When the hospitals succeed in deskilling us even more, they will present it to the public with, "WELL, these medical assistants only have three months less college than the LPNs, and some have Associates Degrees, just like the ADN nurses, so there is no difference in the care that you will receive". And of course, the public, who doesn't know who is anyone, since there have been so many "flavors" of "nurses", over the years, will not give a hoot.
They will of course present this as a "cost saving measure", because, well, "all those college degrees make nurses just too expensive, and does nothing but increase the cost of YOUR health care. Besides, what difference can a couple of college classes make, when all those nurses do is fluff you pillow, bring you fresh ice water, and wipe you butt when you go to the bathroom". You don't need a college degree for that, now do you" ?
What's that you say? The public LOVES nurses, and we rate oh so high on ethics factors? Has it ever occured to you, that the reason the public thinks we are so wonderful, is that we provide all of the professional nursing care that they require to get well, work 27/7, and we are happy and content to receive High School dropout wages for all of it? I guarantee, if we ever started to demand the professional wages and benefits that we deserve, the public would have a field day with us, screaming that WE are the reason for the hight cost of health care. And how dare they, with only two years of college, demanding those kind of wages, when they don't even have a college degree". Fueled, no doubt, by the hospitals, who want to continue to pay us the substandard wages that we have been receiving since the beginning of time. Think about it.
The people who responded early in this thread got that. Those who twisted my intent to mean that two year ADN and four year BSN degrees are equivalent did so on their own.
I don't need to hear any more arguments, cogent or otherwise, for making BSN entry-level to practice. I didn't state my own opinion on that topic, either. It wasn't relevant to the discussion at hand.
Maybe now you'll understand why I am dismayed to see the thread led down this way. Maybe not...
:yelclap: :cheers: :pumpiron: It seems that some people did not read the OP. It appears to me she started this thread to get some POSITIVE feedback and understanding, not to start a debate. Come on people, have some sensitivity, get over yourself, and allow someone to vent. Geesh.
Specializes in home & public health, med-surg, hospice.
In all reality, if you start a post with the title "Just" a two year degree---what road did you expect to see the thread led down?
If your original premise is that people don't respect or understand the 2 year ADN degree--and the general public does not---AND it appears to bother you---perhaps listening to those making cogent arguments for all BSN practice might start to make sense to ya.
Maybe not...
There ya go with that useless "critical thinkin'" kinda mess...how pretentious of you...lol (j/k).
Thing is, RNsRWe, what we're trying to say is, nobody's discrediting the hard work it takes to get an ADN. As a matter of fact, that's just the point, you're not given the credit you deserve, don't you see? You go to school 3 yrs. for a 2, when you could go 4 for 4, know what I mean?
It is a logical argument that if the entry level was a BSN, then you wouldn't be getting the slack you're getting and neither would the profession as a whole.
JMO. Please believe, I totally respect the ADN. My own Mom was a Diploma nurse and there'll never be another like her. I, myself, am an LVN currently in my last year of BSN. It hasn't been easy, I have children, a job, an hour commute both ways, lost my Dad (who was my only living parent) while in school and gone through many hardships but, you know what? If I can do it as an LVN only getting credit for the "basic care class" and only getting to "test out" of pharm, I know ADNs can. My school offers the whole transition on-line and you can get it done in just 1 year.
Oh well. I understand the frustation and I understand the vent; I feel it too, I wish there were more unity in nursing with and amongst all of our colleagues. But why resist a valid solution?
At the risk of taking the bait and volleying the nasties, I'll explain it simply: I vented my frustration at having someone who had more 'inside' knowledge than the general public, a pharmacy technician, consider the Associates RN equivalent to a bulls**t humanities degree. That considering we "only" went to school for two years, we ought to be down on our knees grateful for the dollars we receive each week. I was venting my frustration at the misconception that such a degree is passed as easily as most any other Associates degree, and that in fact it really only did take two years.
The people who responded early in this thread got that. Those who twisted my intent to mean that two year ADN and four year BSN degrees are equivalent did so on their own.
I don't need to hear any more arguments, cogent or otherwise, for making BSN entry-level to practice. I didn't state my own opinion on that topic, either. It wasn't relevant to the discussion at hand.
Maybe now you'll understand why I am dismayed to see the thread led down this way. Maybe not...
I'll be honest here, and I don't mean any disrespect in any way...I want to say that first.
I think you are totally over-reacting to what the pharmacy tech said, because what she said was 100% ACCURATE.
If you look at 2-year degree Nursing programs that are at hospitals and community colleges and compare them with the salaries of about every other major they have, RN's make almost DOUBLE what the other 2-year degree programs make.
They make MORE than a huge percentage of 4-year degrees, because keep in mind...it's posted everywhere on this message board that new grad BSN's and ASN RN's make the same salary.
So, for your own sanity, don't read more into what she said than what she said. She didn't say you weren't educated or qualified to do your job...that was words that you interpreted in your original post and never came out of the pharmacy tech's mouth. She said that you made good money for "just" a 2- year degree. Two years isn't a long time, when you compare it with 4 years, and she was right because you read more into her statement than what existed. Did it occur to you that she might have received her pharmacy tech certification from a 2 year college and was probably jealous that you were making far more than she did, and she possibly had the same level of education that you have?
BE PROUD of the fact that you are an RN and not how many years you went to school, what difference does it make how long you spent in school?
Someone else posted on the board somewhere, where the CNA's get dumped on by the LPN's and the LPN's get dumped on by the RN's and the RN's get dumped on by the NP's and so on.
Know now that there will always be people more educated than you, more educated than people like me, more educated than the doctors, it never ends.
Again, be proud of what you are and what you have accomplished because there is nothing wrong with obtaining ANY level of education.
I'll be honest here, and I don't mean any disrespect in any way...I want to say that first.
I think you are totally over-reacting to what the pharmacy tech said, because what she said was 100% ACCURATE.
If you look at 2-year degree Nursing programs that are at hospitals and community colleges and compare them with the salaries of about every other major they have, RN's make almost DOUBLE what the other 2-year degree programs make.
They make MORE than a huge percentage of 4-year degrees, because keep in mind...it's posted everywhere on this message board that new grad BSN's and ASN RN's make the same salary.
So, for your own sanity, don't read more into what she said than what she said. She didn't say you weren't educated or qualified to do your job...that was words that you interpreted in your original post and never came out of the pharmacy tech's mouth. She said that you made good money for "just" a 2- year degree. Two years isn't a long time, when you compare it with 4 years, and she was right because you read more into her statement than what existed. Did it occur to you that she might have received her pharmacy tech certification from a 2 year college and was probably jealous that you were making far more than she did, and she possibly had the same level of education that you have?
BE PROUD of the fact that you are an RN and not how many years you went to school, what difference does it make how long you spent in school?
Someone else posted on the board somewhere, where the CNA's get dumped on by the LPN's and the LPN's get dumped on by the RN's and the RN's get dumped on by the NP's and so on.
Know now that there will always be people more educated than you, more educated than people like me, more educated than the doctors, it never ends.
Again, be proud of what you are and what you have accomplished because there is nothing wrong with obtaining ANY level of education.
I was thinking the same thing. Although earning an ADN may take some people longer than two years to complete, it is still considered a two year degree.
Thank you to all who have responded to the original topic; it is appreciated. Those who wish to turn it on its side and argue about who's better, ADN vs BSN, I'll just ask you to refrain. It truly is a wasted discussion on both sides.
I guess this thread has already run its natural course and perhaps it should be stopped before something gets ugly?
Agreeing with you, unfortunately, certain people take threads like this and use it as an opportunity to degrade and insult others.
No matter what field you are there is someone that always has to knock down your choice of degree...I was in a ADN program and had a customer explain to me that she would rather have someone with a 4 year degree take care of her because they had more classes..Now I am a FNP student and hear comments to the same tone "if im going to pay for a doctor, I want to see a doctor". Sometimes you have to SMILE :nuke: !!!
It pisses me off like no other when someone refers to a two year program as an "easy" nursing program or in this case "just" a 2 yr degree...
I go to El Centro College, part of Dallas County Community Colleges... and I can't TELL YOU how many people are DENIED acceptance into El Centro's nursing program, so they resort to going to the 4 year programs...
They bust our butts SO much harder than the 4 years around here... I've even seen nurses in the hospital that will refuse to work with students that aren't from a two year program because they really can't handle too much and quite a few are clinically inept... The professors at the 4 yrs also tell their students not to even COMPARE themselves with us because they won't even come close to our clinical abilities coming OUT of SCHOOL until at least 6 months of working as a full time RN...
In order to even THINK about getting into our program, you are required to have a 4.0 GPA on all your pre-reqs... If you don't, you can forget it... Our MINIMUM passing grade is a 78.. Our HESI requirements are even HIGHER than any other college nearby! Just a few weeks ago I had a friend that said I went to the "easy" nursing school. I flipped. First, she couldn't even get INTO my college, that's why she went to the BSN... And second, the NCLEX passing rate is a 97% at my school vs. a 91% at most of the BSN programs around here...
What is boils down to... you don't need all those BS courses to make you a safe, efficient, and knowledgeable nurse.. how is history, government, statistics, upper level math, all of those BS classes EVER.. EVER going to come into play in NURSING... fact is, ITS NOT.. thats HOW the two year degree came about =)
And about getting more opportunities if you have a BSN... I am applying for RN positions now, and.... I haven't noticed any place that I am not allowed to work because I will have an ADN... In fact... I was one of the first people offered a position at PARKLAND's ER & L/D... the L&D being the 2nd busiest in the WORLD... The only opportunities that we MAY be denied.. is charge nurse (which I've seen ADNs assume that role on MULTIPLE occasions), and a nurse manager...
IN MY OPINION, if you plan to STAY an RN and decide against furthering your education, I think the best route to obtain your RN is with an ADN... Simply because why spend ALL of the money and the EXTRA YEAR to get a BSN, when really.. we're all paid the same... BSNs don't get paid any more than ADNs.. So... ADN is CHEAPER and FASTER... and better
Ok So I have a question.... if the requirements are so high to get into your school (and obviously you worked your tail off to make all As in your prereqs) why then did you go for an ADN program and not a BSN program?
I mean we cant change the way the world works, and most HR departments tend to hire BSN over ADN (at least around where I live they do) if both canidates are equal in experience... so ya why did you choose ADN... (no attack intended just an innocent question)
RNsRWe, ASN, RN
3 Articles; 10,428 Posts
At the risk of taking the bait and volleying the nasties, I'll explain it simply: I vented my frustration at having someone who had more 'inside' knowledge than the general public, a pharmacy technician, consider the Associates RN equivalent to a bulls**t humanities degree. That considering we "only" went to school for two years, we ought to be down on our knees grateful for the dollars we receive each week. I was venting my frustration at the misconception that such a degree is passed as easily as most any other Associates degree, and that in fact it really only did take two years.
The people who responded early in this thread got that. Those who twisted my intent to mean that two year ADN and four year BSN degrees are equivalent did so on their own.
I don't need to hear any more arguments, cogent or otherwise, for making BSN entry-level to practice. I didn't state my own opinion on that topic, either. It wasn't relevant to the discussion at hand.
Maybe now you'll understand why I am dismayed to see the thread led down this way. Maybe not...